Episode 142 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week the panel is made up of Louis Simoneau (@rssaddict), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves and Patrick O’Keefe (@ifroggy).

SitePoint Podcast的第142集现在可用！ 本周的小组由路易斯·西蒙诺( @rssaddict )，斯蒂芬·塞格拉夫(Stephan Segraves)( @ssegraves和帕特里克·奥基夫(Patrick O'Keefe)( @ifroggy )组成。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：

• SitePoint Podcast #142: The Last Panel of 2011 (MP3, 38:18, 36.8MB)

  SitePoint Podcast＃142：2011年最后一版 (MP3，38:18，36.8MB)

剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)

Here are the main topics covered in this episode:

以下是本集中介绍的主要主题：

• Chrome Becomes the World’s Second Favorite Browser

  Chrome成为世界第二受欢迎的浏览器

• Is Firefox Doomed?

  Firefox是否注定要失败？

• inessential.com: The Pummeling Pages

  inessential.com：重击页面

• JQuery Shutters Plugin Site

  jQuery百叶窗插件网站

Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/142.

浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/142中显示的参考链接的完整列表。

主持人聚光灯 (Host Spotlights)

• Patrick: SNL Digital Short: Batman

  帕特里克： SNL数字短片：蝙蝠侠

• Stephan: Do You Suffer From Decision Fatigue? – NYTimes.com

  斯蒂芬： 您是否患有决策疲劳？ – NYTimes.com

• Louis: Knyle Style Sheets — Warpspire

  路易： Knyle样式表-Warpspire

面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)

Louis:: Hello and welcome to another episode of the SitePoint Podcast, we’ve got a panel show this week, Patrick and Stephan are on the line with me, hi, guys.

路易斯：：您好，欢迎收看SitePoint播客的另一集，本周我们进行了小组讨论，帕特里克和斯蒂芬和我在一起，大家好。

Stephan: Hey, Louis:!

斯蒂芬：嘿， 路易斯： ！

Patrick: Hey, Louis:!

帕特里克：嘿， 路易： ！

Louis:: Our newest member of the panel, Kevin, could not make it this week so there are only three, but we’ve got a lot to talk about so I reckon it will be a good show.

路易斯：：我们小组的最新成员凯文(Kevin)本周未能出席，只有三个，但是我们有很多要讨论的地方，因此我认为这将是一次很好的表演。

Patrick: Yeah, we didn’t like him so we kicked him off the show, no, (laughter), just kidding, just kidding.

帕特里克：是的，我们不喜欢他，所以我们把他踢出了舞台，不，(笑声)，只是在开玩笑，只是在开玩笑。

Louis:: That’s not true.

路易斯：不是这样。

Patrick: No, that’s not true.

帕特里克：不，那不是真的。

Louis:: Kevin’s great and he’ll be back next panel show which I believe will be in the New Year because next week I’ll be doing an interview and then we’ll be taking two weeks off for the holidays.

路易斯：：凯文(Kevin)太好了，他将在下一个小组展示会上回来，我相信这将是在新年期间，因为下周我将接受采访，然后我们将在假期中休假两周。

Patrick: Yes, two weeks vacation that we get every year (laughter).

帕特里克：是的，我们每年都有两个星期的假期(笑声)。

Louis:: Well deserved, it’s been a great year of podcasting.

路易斯：：当之无愧，这是播客辉煌的一年。

Patrick: Excellent, yes. You joined the team, so.

帕特里克：很好，是的。 您加入了团队，所以。

Stephan: It’s hard to believe it’s been a year.

史蒂芬：很难相信已经一年了。

Louis:: I don’t even remember when I came, when I started doing the podcast.

路易斯：我什至不记得我什么时候来做播客。

Patrick: I don’t know, we’ll have to look that up, but —

帕特里克：我不知道，我们必须查一下，但是-

Stephan: We’ll have to look that up, yeah.

史蒂芬：我们必须查一下，是的。

Patrick: It was in 2011 I’ll tell you that.

帕特里克：那是2011年，我会告诉你的。

Stephan: (Laughs) Thanks, Patrick.

斯蒂芬：(笑)谢谢，帕特里克。

Louis:: It was #110 on the 1st of May 2011.

路易： 2011年5月1日是＃110。

Patrick: May 1, 2011, excellent. So a good seven months into the show come January 1st. And of course you had been kind of the interview host in some ways; Kevin had secretly snuck you in.

帕特里克： 2011年5月1日，出色。 1月1日是展会的七个月。 当然，您在某些方面也曾是面试主持人。 凯文偷偷地偷了你。

Louis:: Yeah, I’d done a couple of shows before that.

路易斯：是的，在那之前我做了几场表演。

Patrick: To do some of his work (laughs), and then we brought you on officially, so, excellent!

帕特里克(Patrick)：做他的一些工作(笑)，然后我们正式带您上了，太好了！

Louis:: So this makes it the last panel show of the year so the pressure’s on, but we gotta kill it.

路易斯：：这是今年的最后一次面板展览，因此压力不断增加，但我们必须扼杀它。

Patrick: Yes, absolutely, let’s kill the show.

帕特里克：是的，绝对，让我们杀死这场表演。

Louis:: (Laughs) with that in mind I’ll throw it to you, Patrick, for the first story.

路易：(笑)记住这一点，我会把它讲给你，帕特里克，第一个故事。

Patrick: Cool. So my story is about Firefox, and Firefox is my browser, I still have not yet downloaded Chrome. Actually I said on this show that I was going to finally download it, and to test a bug, but the person emailed me back and said the bug has resolved itself (laughter), so I still didn’t need to. But plenty of other people are downloading Chrome because according to Statcounter.com it became in November the second most popular browser in the world, behind IE, and got ahead of Firefox; it has overall the market share of 25.74%, Firefox, both versions 3.7 and 4.0+ are down to 25.24%, so Chrome is up .5%, half a percent, and Firefox lost a full percent of ground, more than a full percent of ground in just one month with Chrome gaining .69, and I guess, finally, it’s been on a steady ascent, achieving that number two browser mark. And I guess one of the things I’m wondering about Chrome is does it have the metal, I guess you could say, to challenge Internet Explorer. Internet Explorer did see a gain in November as well, it went from 40.18 to 40.63, it say a marked gain in the U.S. going from 46.11 to 50.66, so a 4% gain in the U.S., but then again Chrome hasn’t lost in months and months it seems, it just continues to go up. So, can Chrome challenge Internet Explorer?

帕特里克：酷。 因此，我的故事是关于Firefox的，而Firefox是我的浏览器，但我仍未下载Chrome。 实际上，我在该节目中说过我将最终下载它并测试错误，但是该人向我发送了电子邮件，并说该错误已自行解决(笑声)，所以我仍然不需要这样做。 但是还有很多人正在下载Chrome，因为根据Statcounter.com的说法，该浏览器在11月成为世界第二流行的浏览器，仅次于IE，并且领先于Firefox。 它的整体市场份额为25.74％，Firefox(3.7版和4.0+版本)下降到25.24％，因此Chrome上升了0.5％，上升了0.5％，Firefox失去了全部份额，超过了全部份额Chrome仅仅在一个月内便获得了.69的增长，我想，最终，它正在稳步上升，实现了浏览器排名第二。 而且，我想我想知道的关于Chrome的一件事是，它是否具有挑战Internet Explorer的实力。 Internet Explorer在11月份也确实有所增长，从40.18上升至40.63，它说美国的显着增长从46.11增长至50.66，因此在美国增长了4％，但随后Chrome并没有输掉似乎几个月又几个月，它还在继续上升。 那么，Chrome可以挑战Internet Explorer吗？

Louis:: To me the interesting thing here is I always see the Chrome and Firefox use as sort of being championed by the more techie crowd, and they’ll get all their family and friends to upgrade their browsers and to switch away from IE, and I wonder if that’s going to be slightly less the case with the new IE, right. From IE9 and IE10 we’re seeing great performance, good security, good support for standards, and I’m wondering whether if someone gets a brand new Windows computer tomorrow would you be less likely to try and get them to upgrade or switch their browser than you would have been five years ago when someone got XP with IE6.

路易斯：对我来说，有趣的是，我总是看到Chrome和Firefox受到了更多技术支持者的拥护，他们将带家人和朋友升级浏览器并从IE转移，我想知道新IE的情况是否会少一些，对。 从IE9和IE10中，我们看到了出色的性能，良好的安全性，对标准的良好支持，并且我想知道明天是否有人购买了全新的Windows计算机，您是否会不太可能尝试让他们升级或切换浏览器比起五年前有人使用IE6获得XP的情况要好得多。

Stephan: That’s a good question.

史蒂芬：这是一个很好的问题。

Patrick: That’s a fair question. I don’t know the answer to that question.

帕特里克：这是一个公平的问题。 我不知道那个问题的答案。

Stephan: Well, it’d be really great if we could see the numbers on how it did with the conversion, it’d be awesome; I’m sure Google wishes they knew what the conversion rate was on different things because I notice in certain plugins that Google has, like Google, I think it’s Analytics, they — I’m using it in WordPress, and if I use Safari it pops up and tells me that I’m using and outdated browser, the AdSense, or the Analytics plugin for WordPress. So, I find that interesting, so do you think like people that are publishing websites using WordPress or some kind of plugin that Google makes are getting these popups and going, hey, I’m gonna go download that because it’s from Google or do you think that it’s really family members that are driving this?

斯蒂芬：好吧，如果我们能看到有关转换如何完成的数字，那真是太好了； 我确信Google希望他们知道不同事物的转化率，因为我注意到Google拥有的某些插件，例如Google，我认为它是Analytics(分析)，他们-我在WordPress中使用它，如果我使用Safari，弹出窗口，告诉我我正在使用过时的浏览器，AdSense或适用于WordPress的Analytics(分析)插件。 因此，我觉得这很有趣，您是否认为像使用WordPress或Google制作的某种插件发布网站的人正在获取这些弹出窗口，然后，我要去下载该文件，因为它来自Google还是您认为真正是家庭成员推动了这一点吗？

Louis:: Yeah, maybe, there’s something to be said, I mean Google did put out a pretty significant marketing push for Chrome, they did some ads, they did some TV ads, and I think the Google name resonates for a lot of people with respect to the Internet, and it gives you an impression, of speed at least, that was considerable I’d say a year or two ago; I think the other browsers have sort of caught up now. Yeah, I’m not sure, I mean personally like you, Patrick, I’m a Firefox user, and I’ve switched to Chrome on my work machine because I have a lot of stuff open and it’s kind of a little slightly underpowered machine, and I find that Chrome does better on limited resources, but on my home machine which is a pretty powerful box I use Firefox because I just prefer the feature set. To me it seems like it was definitely a hugely important thing for the Internet and for us as web developers to have at least one browser that wasn’t put out by a private company with ulterior motives. And I think Firefox is super important on that respect because the Mozilla Foundation’s only goal is trying to make the Internet better and trying to advance standards, so I think it’s super important that they stick around at the very least, so hopefully Chrome won’t put too big a dent in.

路易：是的，也许有话要说，我的意思是Google确实为Chrome推出了相当重要的营销手段，他们做了一些广告，他们做了一些电视广告，我认为Google名称引起了很多人的共鸣。关于互联网，至少给人一种速度上的印象，我在一两年前就说过了。 我认为其他浏览器现在已经赶上了。 是的，我不确定，我的意思是像您一样，Patrick，我是Firefox用户，并且我已经在工作机上切换到Chrome，因为我打开了很多东西，但动力有些不足机器，我发现Chrome在有限的资源上表现更好，但是在我的家用机器(这是一个功能强大的盒子)上，我使用Firefox，因为我只喜欢功能集。 对我来说，对于互联网和我们作为Web开发人员来说，至少拥有一个别有用心的私人公司所没有推出的浏览器似乎绝对是一件非常重要的事情。 而且我认为Firefox在这方面非常重要，因为Mozilla基金会的唯一目标是努力改善互联网并提高标准，因此我认为至少要坚持这一点非常重要，因此希望Chrome不会压得太大

Patrick: Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see what exactly I guess the plateau is for Chrome because looking at the chart I mean it’s just been up, up, up, up, up. It has gained year over year about 13%, 12 to 13%, and that’s come directly from Firefox and IE; Firefox has fallen 6% and IE has fallen about 8%, so 8+6, 14, 13% gain, I mean it’s coming right from it, so I don’t know what the plateau will be for Chrome but it’ll be interesting to watch I guess.

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，很有趣的是，我确切地认为Chrome的平稳期是多少，因为从图表上我可以看出它的上升，上升，上升，上升，上升。 它比去年同期增长了约13％，12％到13％，这直接来自Firefox和IE。 Firefox下降了6％，而IE下降了约8％，所以8 + 6、14、13％的收益，我的意思是它即将来临，所以我不知道Chrome会达到什么稳定水平，但是我猜很有趣。

Stephan: The gain is about to be the Chrome version number, I mean once they hit 15% gain, you know, we’re on Chrome 15 now, so; every show I bring this up, any show that we talk about Chrome I gotta bring up the version number because they’re like on version 15 and we’re on IE8, you know (laughs).

史蒂芬：收益将是Chrome版本号，我的意思是，一旦收益达到15％，我们现在就使用Chrome 15。 每次我带来这个节目时，任何我们谈论Chrome的节目我都得带来版本号，因为它们就像版本15一样，而我们使用的是IE8(笑)。

Patrick: Maybe that’s how they have to dumb it down, that’s how they have to dumb down the marketing. Is IE on version 9, version 10, what is that, those are pitiful numbers, we’re on 30 America, the world; we are double what they are!

帕特里克(Patrick)：也许这就是他们必须精打细算的方式，这就是他们必须精简营销的方式的方式。 IE版本9，版本10是什么，那是可怜的数字，我们在30个美国和世界上； 我们是他们的两倍！

Louis:: Chrome doesn’t really advertise its version number at all, like you have to dig a little to even see what version, you go onto the website and you just download Chrome and it updates itself in the background, you don’t even know you’re getting a new version.

路易：： Chrome根本没有公布其版本号，就像您必须深入挖掘甚至看到哪个版本一样，您可以访问网站，然后下载Chrome并在后台进行自我更新，而无需甚至知道您正在获取新版本。

Stephan: Exactly.

史蒂芬：是的 。

Patrick: Yeah, that’s a good point, good point.

帕特里克：是的，这是一个好点，好点。

Stephan: Isn’t that the way Firefox has kind of gone?

斯蒂芬：那不是Firefox消失的方式吗？

Louis:: Firefox is doing that but it’ll still tell you, it’ll still, like it told me recently we’ve recently updated to Firefox 8, you want to restart and it’ll be running. I still think the background way of doing it is probably the best because it allows them to push across updates rapidly and transparently without disrupting users.

Louis： Firefox正在这样做，但是它仍然会告诉您，它仍然会像最近告诉我的那样，我们最近已更新到Firefox 8，您想重新启动并开始运行。 我仍然认为，这样做的背景方法可能是最好的，因为它允许他们快速透明地推送更新而不会打扰用户。

Stephan: Yeah.

斯蒂芬：是的。

Patrick: Right, yeah, just to draw a conclusion to the numbers, I mentioned the U.S. numbers, IE’s like 50.66, Firefox is still number two in the U.S., 20.09, and Chrome is third at 17.3, and where Louis: is, Australia, IE has a 40.72, Firefox 23 ½ almost, and Chrome just almost 21, so, Firefox is still number two in the U.S. and in Australia.

帕特里克：对，是的，我只是想得出一个数字，我提到了美国的数字，例如IE为50.66，Firefox在美国仍排名第二，为20.09，Chrome在17.3排名第三，而Louis：在澳大利亚，IE的比例为40.72，Firefox的比例为23½，而Chrome的比例几乎为21，因此Firefox在美国和澳大利亚仍排名第二。

Louis:: Where are those gains coming from for Chrome?

路易斯：： Chrome的收益来自哪里？

Patrick: Well, Chrome is strong in the UK, I know that, I pulled up the numbers for the UK as well, IE is 42.82%, Chrome is number two, 24.82, and Firefox is 20.56, so Chrome has been number two in the UK for a few months, since July; so that’s one country where they are strong. I don’t have an easy way to look at necessarily which countries they’re the strongest in, but the UK is certainly one area that they are leading the way and are just, looks like, 18% below IE. So, yeah, I guess part two of this discussion that I wanted to bring up is an article about — at ReadWriteWeb by John Paul Titlow, the headline was, Is Firefox Doomed? And there are two reasons he asked this question, first, of course, is the market share slip, and then second is that Mozilla’s three year partnership with Google is coming to an end or has come to an end in November. Back in 2008 they signed a three year deal for Google to be the default search engine in Firefox, and Google has contributed about 84% of Firefox’s total revenue during that span. Three years is up, the deal is up, haven’t heard any news about it being renewed, so you have a sizeable chunk of the money that, I guess you could say powers Firefox, may disappear. Now, he says Microsoft might just jump right in line to pick up if Google lets that lax and take that default search engine mark from Google, but right now there’s no news about that. So, is Firefox in trouble or did Firefox accomplish its goal?

帕特里克：嗯，Chrome在英国很强大，我知道，我也为英国排名靠前，IE是42.82％，Chrome是第二，24.82，而Firefox是20.56，所以Chrome一直是英国的第二自7月以来在英国待了几个月； 所以那是一个强大的国家。 我没有一个简单的方法可以确定他们在哪个国家中最强大，但是英国无疑是他们所领导的领域，而且看起来仅比IE低18％。 所以，是的，我想我要提出的讨论的第二部分是一篇有关约翰·保罗·特洛(John Paul Titlow)在ReadWriteWeb上的文章，标题是“ Firefox是否注定要失败？”。 他提出这个问题有两个原因，首先是市场份额的下滑，其次是Mozilla与Google的三年合作关系即将终止或在11月终止。 早在2008年，他们签署了一项为期三年的协议，让Google成为Firefox中的默认搜索引擎，在此期间，Google贡献了Firefox总收入的约84％。 三年过去了，这笔交易已经完成，还没有听到有关续约的任何消息，因此，您有相当大的一笔钱，我想您可以说支持Firefox的钱可能会消失。 现在，他说，如果Google放任自流，并从Google获得该默认搜索引擎标记，Microsoft可能会立即跳起来接机，但目前尚无消息。 那么，Firefox遇到了麻烦还是Firefox完成了目标？

Louis:: Like I said before, I think it’s hugely important that there be an independent browser on the market, so I think that for us as web developers and for geeks and people who love the Internet I think it’s a huge benefit to have something that’s not driven by the need to sell advertising or the need to convert customers. I think already even the Chrome new tab pages has changed a little bit and is kind of gradually edging into the direction of trying to get you to install Chrome Apps or to use Google products, and that’s kind of a concerning slip away from just being a tool that you access the Internet indiscriminately with. So for me it’s hugely important, but, so when you said that 80-something percent of the revenue, is that 86% of the revenue coming into Firefox or that Firefox generates or is that of the Mozilla Foundation’s operating revenue in its entirety?

路易斯：：就像我之前说过的那样，我认为在市场上拥有一个独立的浏览器非常重要，因此我认为对于我们作为Web开发人员以及极客和热爱互联网的人们来说，拥有一些东西是巨大的好处。并非由销售广告或转换客户的需求所驱动。 我认为，即使Chrome的新标签页也已经发生了一些变化，并且正在逐渐趋向于尝试让您安装Chrome Apps或使用Google产品的方向，这有点令人担忧，而不仅仅是成为您随意使用Internet的工具。 所以对我来说，这非常重要，但是，当您说收入的80％左右时，是86％的收入来自Firefox还是Firefox产生的，还是Mozilla基金会的全部营业收入？

Patrick: So, where that number comes from is ZNet’s Ed Bott, and he mentions in an article that in 2010 84% of Mozilla’s 123 million in revenue came directly from Google, that’s roughly 100 million in funds that will vanish or be drastically cut if the deal is either not renewed or is renegotiated on terms that are less favorable to Mozilla. So, I don’t know how you want to read that necessarily, if it’s 84% of Mozilla’s revenue is what he says, but 84% of Firefox’s money or 84% of Mozilla’s money, either way I guess it’s still a sizeable sum.

帕特里克：所以，这个数字来自ZNet的Ed Bott，他在一篇文章中提到，在2010年Mozilla的1.23亿美元收入中，有84％直接来自Google，大约有1亿美元的资金将消失或被大幅削减。这笔交易不会续签，或者会以不利于Mozilla的条款重新谈判。 所以，我不知道您想怎么读，如果Mozilla收入的84％是他所说的，但是Firefox收入的84％或Mozilla收入的84％，无论哪种方式我都认为这仍然是一笔不小的数目。

Louis:: Yeah, that’s huge. It seems like what you were mentioning that this is an opportunity for another competing search provider to jump in and snap up that partnership. It sounds pretty reasonable, right, I mean as far as I can tell Bing is still somewhat struggling, and this would be a great way to bump up the share. The question is would that be acceptable to Firefox users, you know; if you download Firefox and suddenly you’re on Bing, is that somewhat of a jarring experience if you’re a Google user.

路易斯：是的，那是巨大的。 似乎您在说的是，这是另一个竞争的搜索服务提供商加入并建立合作伙伴关系的机会。 听起来很合理，对，我的意思是，据我所知Bing仍在挣扎中，这将是提高份额的好方法。 问题是，Firefox用户是否可以接受？ 如果您下载Firefox并突然使用了Bing，那么如果您是Google用户，那会是一次令人不快的体验。

Patrick: Does Firefox signing a search deal with Google, with Microsoft or with whoever, fly in the face of the idea that we need a browser that doesn’t need to sell ads and doesn’t need to sell things if they’re selling the default search engine, or I guess do we understand the need for them to have money, or how does that, I guess, coexist?

帕特里克(Patrick)： Firefox是否与Google，Microsoft或其他任何人签署了搜索协议，而面对这样的想法：我们需要一个不需要销售广告的浏览器，并且不需要在出售时就可以出售东西默认搜索引擎，或者我想我们了解他们有钱的需要，或者我认为这是如何共存的？

Louis:: I don’t know. It feels to me like it’s a pretty minimal item, right, I mean there’s going to be a default search engine one way or the other, right, and it’s pretty much guaranteed that that search engine would be either Bing or Google because those are pretty much the two major offerings, sorry to all the other players in the search space. So, you know, if they can get a deal and get some money out of it I think it’s a win-win. The thing is that’s not influencing any other aspects of the code, and they’re not changing the user interface in response to these pressures, so I still think they have a stronger independent position than the other browsers in the market.

路易斯：我不知道。 在我看来，这是一个非常小的项目，对，我的意思是，将会有一种默认的搜索引擎，或者是另一种，并且几乎可以保证该搜索引擎可以是Bing或Google，因为它们很漂亮这两个主要功能，这对搜索领域的所有其他玩家都非常抱歉。 因此，您知道，如果他们能达成交易并从中获得一些收益，我认为这是双赢的。 事实是，这不会影响代码的任何其他方面，并且它们并未响应这些压力而更改用户界面，因此我仍然认为它们比市场上其他浏览器具有更强的独立地位。

Stephan: As long as they don’t sign a deal with Yahoo I think they’ll be okay (laughter). Sorry, had to insert a little humor there, you know.

斯蒂芬：只要他们不与雅虎签署协议，我认为他们会没事的(笑声)。 抱歉，您必须在那儿插入一点幽默。

Louis:: That’s alright, that’s alright, that would be hilarious. I can imagine loading up Firefox 10 and suddenly Yahoo is the default, what’s going on? (Laughter)

路易斯：没关系，没关系，这很有趣。 我可以想象加载Firefox 10并突然将Yahoo作为默认设置，这是怎么回事？ (笑声)

Stephan: Delete, delete!

史蒂芬：删除，删除！

Louis:: I can’t find anything, where am I?!

路易斯：我什么也找不到，我在哪里？

Patrick: Whoever will give them the hundred million.

帕特里克：谁愿意给他们一亿。

Stephan: I don’t think Yahoo has a hundred million to do it.

斯蒂芬：我认为雅虎没有做到这一点。

Louis:: Is that the amount; is it a hundred million dollars?

路易斯：是那笔钱吗？ 是一亿美元吗？

Patrick: Well, that’s the estimate if you take 123 and 84% of 123 million is about 100 million dollars, so, and I think that’s the end.

帕特里克：好吧，这是估计数，如果您拿123，而1.23亿中的84％约为1亿美元，所以，我认为这就是终点。

Louis:: Wow. Sorry, I’m just testing Yahoo, wow, that’s awesome. I just searched for SitePoint on Yahoo because I hadn’t done it in forever, and the first result is a sponsored ad for eBay.com.au/guitar, which says bargain SitePoint here, bid and win SitePoint on eBay Australia.

路易斯 ：哇。 抱歉，我正在测试Yahoo，哇，太棒了。 我刚刚在Yahoo上搜索了SitePoint，因为我没有永远做到这一点，第一个结果是eBay.com.au/guitar的赞助广告，其中说在这里议价SitePoint，在eBay澳大利亚竞标并赢得SitePoint。

Patrick: SitePoint’s available, finally! And it’s not on Flippa?

帕特里克：终于可以使用SitePoint了！ 而且不在Flippa上吗？

Louis:: And it’s ebay.com.au/guitar so I assume, oh no, it’s actually SitePoint items, that is weird. Anyway, just a moment of passing nostalgia for the Yahoo search engine there. Alright, I apologize to all our Yahoo listeners; you got a lot of great products.

路易斯：：它是ebay.com.au/guitar，所以我认为，哦，不，它实际上是SitePoint项目，这很奇怪。 无论如何，只有一小段时间让那里的Yahoo搜索引擎怀旧了。 好吧，我向所有雅虎听众致歉； 你有很多很棒的产品。

Stephan: (Laughs)

斯蒂芬：(笑)

Louis:: Oh no, wait, they sold Delicious (laughter).

路易：哦，不，等等，他们卖掉了美味(笑声)。

Stephan: Ha, ha, ha, ha, snap! They still got Flickr.

斯蒂芬：哈哈哈哈哈哈！ 他们仍然有Flickr。

Patrick: I gotta step in now and say that, you know when I was coming up and developing websites for the first time I loved Yahoo, and I still hold hats and glove for Yahoo because they do have some good products. Now, put Delicious aside, they’ve always been strong in like Yahoo Finance, that’s a strong product, Yahoo Sports is a strong product.

帕特里克(Patrick)：我现在要介入，说，你知道当我第一次来到Yahoo开发网站时，我爱Yahoo，但我仍然为Yahoo保留帽子和手套，因为它们确实有一些好产品。 现在，撇开Delicious的眼光，他们一直像Yahoo Finance一样强大，这是一个强大的产品，Yahoo Sports是一个强大的产品。

Louis:: Oh, yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s a good point.

路易斯：哦，是的，是的。 是的，这很不错。

Patrick: The fantasy sports stuff they do, they have these niche products that are very strong that I’ve always used, and then of course they do so many different things and a lot of things they don’t well, and that’s really the problem I guess, but, you know, Yahoo, I hope Yahoo comes back and these strong products get the shine that they deserve I suppose.

帕特里克(Patrick)：他们做的幻想运动产品，它们拥有我一直使用的非常强大的利基产品，然后它们当然会做很多不同的事情，并且做很多他们不擅长的事情，这的确是我猜是一个问题，但是，您知道，雅虎，我希望雅虎回来，这些强大的产品应有其应有的光彩。

Stephan: Bring back Pipes.

史蒂芬：带回烟斗。

Patrick: (Laughs) bring back Pipes.

帕特里克：(笑)带回烟斗。

Louis:: Is Pipes dead?

路易：烟斗死了吗？

Stephan: It’s not dead it’s just not, I don’t know, it’s not up-kept really well.

斯蒂芬：还没有死，只是不，我不知道，这还不是很好。

Louis:: Right. That’s a good — it’s a good product, it’s a great idea.

路易斯 ：对。 很好-这是一个好产品，这是一个好主意。

Stephan: I still use it, it’s just that —

史蒂芬：我仍然使用它，仅是-

Patrick: It’s still there.

帕特里克：它仍然在那里。

Stephan: They haven’t put a lot of use, they haven’t done a lot to it, like they’ve just given you this — like there’s so much more they could do to it. Anyway, I’m getting off-topic, sorry.

史蒂芬：他们没有太多使用，他们没有做很多事情，就像他们刚刚给了你这个一样-就像他们可以做很多事情一样。 无论如何，抱歉。

Louis:: I think we’ve been off-topic for a little while here.

路易斯：我认为我们在这里已经有一段时间了。

Patrick: No, we’re already off-topic, this is the Yahoo segment! (laughter).

帕特里克：不，我们已经不合时宜了，这就是Yahoo细分市场！ (笑声)。

Louis:: Alright, maybe time to move on to the next story. I’ll take this one. So this is something that I spotted on Hacker News yesterday, and what has happened is that the jQuery plugin site is offline and has just been shut down by the jQuery team. Now what the comments here on the post on Hacker News, there’s a couple comments by some of the core team at jQuery and mentioning that they’re working on a new plugin site and they’re gonna blog about that in the next few days. But basically what happened is they were concerned with a lot of sort of spam in the plugin site, so this was at plugins.jquery.com, so if you go there now you see just a simple message saying “The plugin site is currently unavailable, we’ve been looking to provide a high quality spam-free experience for some time, and we’ve just decided to temporarily shutter the existing site and will be providing more details on the new site soon.” So basically they’ve just shut the whole thing off and said, look, we’re working on a new one, but basically as we were working on the new one we came to the conclusion that a lot of the content on the current one was so spammy that rather than just try and clean it we’d turn it off, so it’s a pretty drastic move.

路易斯：好的，也许是时候继续讲下一个故事了。 我拿这个。 因此，这是我昨天在Hacker News上发现的，并且发生的事情是jQuery插件站点处于脱机状态，并且刚刚被jQuery团队关闭。 现在，在Hacker News上的评论中，jQuery的一些核心团队发表了一些评论，并提到他们正在开发一个新的插件站点，并且他们将在未来几天内发布博客。 但基本上发生的是他们关心的是插件网站中的大量垃圾邮件，所以这是在plugins.jquery.com上 ，因此，如果您现在去那里，您只会看到一条简单的消息，说“插件网站当前不可用，我们一直在寻求提供高质量的无垃圾邮件体验，并且我们刚刚决定暂时关闭现有网站，并将很快在新网站上提供更多详细信息。” 因此，基本上他们只是关闭了整个过程，然后说，看，我们正在开发一个新产品，但是基本上，当我们在开发新产品时，我们得出的结论是，当前产品中的许多内容垃圾邮件非常多，以至于我们不仅要尝试对其进行清理，而且还要将其关闭，所以这是一个非常猛烈的举措。

Patrick: Yeah, and by the time we do another show a month from now or there around they’ll probably have the new site up, so we’ll probably be talking about that.

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，等到我们从现在开始一个月或大约一个月的时间，他们可能会建立新的站点，所以我们可能会谈论这个。

Louis:: Yeah, I’m interested to see what’s going to come out of it and how it’s going to differ from the previous one. I have to say I didn’t really use the jQuery plugin site very much, usually a lot of times when you search for a jQuery plugin for something on Google the results you’d find would actually be the developer’s personal site where they posted the plugin rather than on this central location. But there are definitely other examples of this kind of thing done well, if you look at WordPress, WordPress’ plugins and add-on site and Mozilla’s add-on sites are really well done, and they’ve got a good way of floating the quality content at the top and curating it by the community reviews. So it’ll be interesting to see what the jQuery team’s put together, but I just thought it was an interesting move rather than wait until the new one was ready and do a switchover and like, hey guys, we got this new plugin site, they just went, oh, yep, the old plugin site is crap so you can’t use it, and we’ll build a new one eventually but we’re not gonna tell you when.

路易斯：是的，我很想知道它会发生什么以及它与前一个有何不同。 我不得不说我并没有真正使用jQuery插件站点，通常很多次，当您在Google上搜索jQuery插件以查找某些东西时，您发现的结果实际上就是开发人员的个人站点，插件，而不是在此中心位置。 但是，肯定有其他此类示例做得很好的例子，如果您查看WordPress，WordPress的插件和附加站点，而Mozilla的附加站点确实做得很好，并且它们有很好的浮动方式质量最高的内容，并通过社区评论进行策划。 因此，看到jQuery团队的工作很有趣，但是我只是认为这是一个有趣的举动，而不是等到新版本准备就绪并进行切换之后，嘿，大家好，我们有了这个新的插件站点，他们刚刚走了，哦，是的，旧的插件站点很烂，所以您不能使用它，我们最终会建立一个新的插件，但是我们不会在什么时候告诉您。

Patrick: Well, when you put it like that, yeah (laughter). Because in my head is was like, well, you know, we didn’t like what we had so we’re gonna take it down for a few days, it’ll be back soon, and we love you; that’s how I read it, I don’t know.

帕特里克：嗯，当你这样说的时候，是的(笑声)。 因为在我的脑海里，就像，嗯，你知道，我们不喜欢我们拥有的东西，所以我们要把它拆下来几天，它很快就会回来，我们爱你。 我不知道那是我的阅读方式。

Louis:: (Laughs) Well, I think there are a couple of different ways to read this, right, and it seems to me like a bit of a blog post rather than suddenly hitting — I don’t think there’s actually even a blog post on the jQuery blog about it, yet; they said there was gonna be a blog post about what happened soon, but basically some developer was just working on this and decided, well, you know what — I mean I know we’ve all had those days, right, when you’re looking at the thing and thinking ‘this is all crap, I just want to tear it down’.

路易斯：(笑)好吧，我认为有几种不同的阅读方式，对，在我看来，它有点像是一篇博客文章，而不是突然被点击-我认为实际上甚至没有博客在jQuery博客上发布有关它的信息； 他们说将会有一篇关于即将发生的事情的博客文章，但是基本上有一些开发人员正在研究这个问题，并决定，嗯，您知道吗-我的意思是，我知道我们所有的日子都是这样，当您看着那东西，然后想着“这都是废话，我只想把它拆掉”。

Patrick: The podcast sucks, my life is ruined, shut it all down, it’s garbage.

帕特里克(Patrick)：播客很烂，我的生活被毁了，把它全部关闭，这是垃圾。

Louis:: Yeah, right, you have those days, but it looks like someone really carried through on this one.

路易斯：是的，那段日子真好，但看起来确实有人在经历这一天。

Patrick: Is that an ultimatum of a dare? I’m just kidding.

帕特里克：这是敢于做出的最后通?？ 我只是在开玩笑。

Stephan: Wow, I’m just reading through some of these comments, it’s just, you know, it’s funny to see people get really upset, and there’s other people like trying to justify it, and then there’s other people giving the technical reasons; comments are hilarious, I love comments (laughter).

史蒂芬：哇，我只是在阅读其中的一些评论，只是，你知道，看到人们真的很沮丧，这很有趣，还有其他人喜欢试图证明这一点，然后还有其他人给出了技术原因； 评论很搞笑，我喜欢评论(笑声)。

Louis:: I love comments in some places, it’s not always — if you ever find yourself reading the comments on like a major news outlet’s website that will make you hate humanity in record time.

路易斯：我不喜欢在某些地方发表评论，如果您喜欢在主要新闻媒体的网站上阅读评论，那会让您在创纪录的时间内讨厌人类，那并非总是如此。

Stephan: We’re gonna get to that. We’re gonna get to that in my story, so don’t jump the gun yet.

史蒂芬：我们要实现这一目标。 我们将在我的故事中讲到这一点，所以请不要犹豫。

Louis:: Okay, I won’t jump the gun, but comments, I mean obviously on Hacker News and Reddit, you know, these sites thrive on the quality of the community, and you get great insight and great trolling as well, even, you know, even when they’re trolling they’re entertaining.

路易：好的，我不会主动提出意见，但是，我的意思显然是在Hacker News和Reddit上，您知道，这些网站在促进社区质量方面蒸蒸日上，甚至您也获得了深刻的见解和出色的建议。 ，即使他们在拖钓，他们也很有趣。

Stephan: Nothing like good trolling. Nothing like good trolling (laughter).

史蒂芬：没什么好拖钓的。 没什么好拖钓的(笑声)。

Louis:: Well, on that note, do you want to just jump into your story?

路易斯：嗯，就此而言，您是否只想谈谈您的故事？

Stephan: Yeah. Yeah, so, Brent Simmons who runs Inessential.com has a blog post up called The Pummeling Pages, and it’s quite a good read just from a perspective of you reading a website and what the Web has become in the past, oh, I don’t know, five years, six years. And he really talks about how his use of Reader, in the Reader button in Safari, and how quickly he’s using it when he goes to different websites. Just from the idea that you know there’s all these ads, there’s comments everywhere, there’s just junk all over what used to be useful pages, and it’s not just run-of-the-mill blogs, it’s news sites that we actually use, and he draws a comparison to the merchants war where this was predicted before; lower class people would be subjected to a ton of advertising while upper class people were being insulated, and I don’t know if that’s actually true, but I know that we’re being hit with a lot more advertising for what amounts to not better content, right. So, it’s a good read about just getting rid of the junk off your page. And I just want to know what you guys think.

斯蒂芬：是的。 是的，因此，运行Inessential.com的 Brent Simmons的博客文章名为The Pummeling Pages，从您阅读网站的角度以及网络过去的状况来看，这是一个很好的阅读，哦，我不知道不知道，五年，六年。 他确实谈论了如何使用Safari中的“阅读器”按钮中的阅读器，以及当他访问其他网站时他如何快速地使用它。 从您知道所有这些广告的想法，到处都是评论，过去是有用的页面到处都是垃圾，不只是普通的博客，我们实际使用的新闻网站，以及他与以前曾预测过的商人战争作了比较。 下层阶级的人被隔绝时，下层阶级的人会遭受大量的广告宣传，我不知道这是否真的成立，但是我知道我们正遭受着更多的广告宣传，这意味着效果不佳内容，对。 因此，这是关于摆脱页面上的垃圾的很好的读物。 我只想知道你们的想法。

Louis:: Well, I think like I was saying before, there’s a distinction here between the way mainstream publications approach this versus the way sort of Internet publications approach this. So, a traditional newspaper site that’s been ported into the Internet definitely tends to suffer from this problem where you’ve got a thousand share buttons and widgets and comments, and it’s like a 1200 word article split onto seven pages that each take about seven seconds to load. I love the first sentence of this essay, by the way, he starts the whole thing off with, “I made the mistake of going to a website today,” period; great way of kicking into it, so I really like this essay. But there are a lot of specialized blogs out there targeting a specific niche or just, you know, that started this Internet publication that are a lot leaner. And do you think maybe it’s just because these traditional publications have leases on offices and have all this staff that they need to support, and as they’re declining revenues from their print publications they’re constantly under pressure to jack-up the amount of money that they can bring in through the sites where a lot of the newer generation of Internet based content providers were sort of lean from the start, and whatever money they make from their ads by providing quality content that differentiates them from the rest isn’t enough to cover what they need to pay.

路易斯：嗯，我想就像我之前说过的那样，主流出版物采用这种方式与互联网出版物采用这种方式之间存在区别。 因此，已经被移植到Internet上的传统报纸网站肯定会遭受这个问题的困扰，因为您拥有一千个共享按钮，小部件和评论，就像一个1200字的文章分成七个页面，每个页面大约需要七秒钟装载。 我喜欢这篇文章的第一句话，顺便说一句，他以“我今天访问网站的错误”开始整个话题。 非常好的方法，所以我真的很喜欢这篇文章。 但是，有很多专门针对特定细分市场的专门博客，或者只是，您知道，这开始使该互联网出版物更加精简。 您是否认为这仅仅是因为这些传统出版物在办公室有租约并需要他们支持的所有这些工作人员，并且由于它们的印刷出版物收入不断下降，因此他们一直承受着增加出版物数量的压力。他们可以通过许多新一代的基于Internet的内容提供商从一开始就靠它们赚钱的网站赚钱，而他们通过提供与众不同的优质内容而从广告中赚到的钱却不是足以支付他们需要支付的费用。

Stephan: Well, he kind of touches on this, and he talks about he worked for a company that worked with a bunch of publishers, Taplinks is the name of the company, and he said that the number three thing that they had in common, that all of these different publishers had in common, was the unanswering, unswerving faith in supreme value of analytics. So they would look at their numbers and say, well, that article got a lot of hits, let’s write another one like that, right, and that’s the totally wrong way to do it, right. I mean if we’re writing articles just to get hits then we’re doing the wrong thing, we should be writing articles because there’s something to be written, not because we want ad money, so maybe that’s the first step.

史蒂芬：嗯，他对此有点感触，他说他在一家与许多发行商合作的公司工作，Taplinks是该公司的名字，他说他们的共同点是三点，所有这些不同的发布者都有一个共同点，那就是对分析的最高价值的坚定，坚定的信念。 因此，他们会看一下他们的数字，然后说，那篇文章获得了很大的成功，让我们写另一篇这样的文章，对，这是完全错误的方式。 我的意思是，如果我们只是为了吸引人而写文章，那我们做错了事，我们应该写文章是因为有文章要写，而不是因为我们要广告钱，所以也许这是第一步。

Patrick: Well —

帕特里克：恩-

Stephan: But you need money, right, Patrick?

斯蒂芬：但是你需要钱，对，帕特里克？

Patrick: Awkward laugh. Right, I mean I don’t know — if that’s wrong then I would say a lot of people are doing it wrong right now. And I think it’s — I don’t think it’s all bad to write articles that people want to read, I don’t think. Because that’s another way to read that sentence, that’s another way to say that same thing is that people are writing content that people come for, right?

帕特里克：尴尬的笑声。 是的，我的意思是我不知道-如果那是错误的话，那么我会说很多人现在做错了。 我认为这是-我认为撰写人们想要阅读的文章并不坏，我认为。 因为这是阅读该句子的另一种方式，所以这是说同一件事的另一种方式，就是人们正在写人们所追求的内容，对吗？

Stephan: Eh, but I don’t know about that, though, because to me you can make —

斯蒂芬：嗯，但是我不知道，因为对我来说，你可以-

Patrick: In some cases.

帕特里克：在某些情况下。

Stephan: — money without forcing people to look at a bunch of ads for a good article, like why do you have to fill the page with a bunch of junk.

斯蒂芬(Stephan)： —赚钱而又不强迫人们看一堆好文章的广告，例如为什么要在页面上堆满一堆垃圾。

Patrick: So this is a tough discussion because I’m not sensitive to advertising, ads don’t bother me, really, they don’t; ads on the Web don’t bother me at all. The only thing that bothers me is, and it’s only occasionally, is when there’s sound that plays automatically in-ad, that is decidedly rare on most publications that I read.

帕特里克：这是一个艰难的讨论，因为我对广告不敏感，广告不会打扰我，实际上，它们不会； 网络上的广告根本不会打扰我。 唯一令我困扰的是，并且偶尔会在广告中自动播放声音，这在我阅读的大多数出版物中都很少见。

Louis:: But what about when it affects the load time significantly, and when they artificially —

Louis ：：但是什么时候会明显影响加载时间，以及何时人为地-

Patrick: That doesn’t bother me.

帕特里克：那不打扰我。

Louis:: — try and inflate the pageviews for those advertisers by paginating the article needlessly.

路易：： -尝试通过不必要地对文章进行分页来为那些广告客户增加综合浏览量。

Patrick: Okay, so that, the paginating, great word, is, uh, you know, I’ll confess to being maybe a little bothered by that, slightly perturbed perhaps (laughter), but it just doesn’t bother me that much because, you know, when most people complain about ads on a website I look at that site and I say that’s no big deal, because I look at content and I look at ads in percentages, most pages that I visit don’t have ads in even 30% of the page, and/or even 30, 35, 40%, more than half the page is other stuff, content, logos, navigation, etcetera, and that’s what I try to weigh on my sites, which I would say have less than average volume of advertising versus let’s say similar sites or other websites on the Web, because that’s where websites are, on the Web. So, I almost feel just to — I guess to present the counter to this is that there’s a sense of entitlement that shows its ugly head sometimes because there’s such a subjective thing that goes on with these comments where some people feel these ads are too — or there’s too many, they don’t like the type of advertising, they don’t like what the ads about; these publications have to make money to sustain themselves, and it’s not always one ad a page or a couple ads a page, and it’s not always going to be targeted to the topic. If it isn’t showing nudity, right, or cigarettes or alcohol, and it’s not popping up and it’s not playing noise, then I don’t have a problem with it for the most part, it doesn’t bother me.

帕特里克(Patrick)：好吧，这是个好话，好吧，呃，你知道，我承认也许对此有些困扰，也许有点(打扰)，但是这并没有给我那么多困扰因为您知道，当大多数人抱怨某个网站上的广告时，我会浏览该网站，而我说那没什么大不了的，因为我会查看内容，并且会按百分比查看广告，因此，我访问的大多数网页都没有广告在甚至30％的页面和/或30、35、40％的页面中，超过一半的页面是其他内容，内容，徽标，导航等，这就是我想在自己的网站上权衡的原因，假设其广告投放量少于平均水平，而与之类似的网站或网络上的其他网站相比，则要少得多，因为这就是网站在网络上的位置。 因此，我几乎感觉只是-我想反驳这一点是，有时有些人会觉得自己的头很丑陋，因为有些评论认为这样的主观感受在某些人也觉得这些广告也是如此-或太多，他们不喜欢广告的类型，不喜欢广告的内容； 这些出版物必须靠赚钱维持生计，它并不总是一个页面一个广告，也不总是一对夫妇一个页面，而且也不一定总是针对该主题。 如果它没有显示出裸露，对的地方，香烟或酒精，并且没有弹出并且没有发出声音，那么我在很大程度上没有问题，也不会打扰我。

Stephan: But that’s kind of the point though, Patrick, I think is that in some of these places they are popping up.

史蒂芬：帕特里克，但这是重点，我认为在某些地方，他们正在崛起。

Patrick: But that’s rare though.

帕特里克：但是那很罕见。

Stephan: But these are supposed to be reputable sites some of them.

斯蒂芬：但是其中一些应该是信誉良好的网站。

Patrick: I mean that is so rare though on news sites to have a popup ad these days for the amount of pages that I visit.

帕特里克(Patrick)：我的意思是，尽管这些天在新闻网站上很少出现弹出广告来显示我访问的页面数量，这种情况很少。

Stephan: You’re saying you never get — like I’ll be on my phone and I’ll go to a link that I see on Twitter and it’ll be to some news site, some reputable news site, and instead of me being able to go to the article I get a little popup that keeps me from scrolling through the content, and I gotta wait five seconds.

史蒂芬(Stephan)：您是说您永远都不会得到-就像我会在手机上一样，我会转到一个在Twitter上看到的链接，它将指向某个新闻站点，一些知名新闻站点，而不是我能够转到该文章，我得到了一个弹出窗口，使我无法滚动浏览内容，而我必须等待五秒钟。

Patrick: Right, so an overlay or an interstitial, yeah.

帕特里克：是的，是重叠式广告还是插页式广告，是的。

Stephan: Yes!

史蒂芬：是的！

Patrick: I get those ads and honestly they don’t bother me. I can see why they bother some people, but they just don’t bother me all that much. Not so much that it makes me hate the Web or hate the publication or want to find a way to screw them of that revenue by viewing their content in some other means, it just doesn’t push me that far. I understand it pushes some people that far, but, I think that this is a case where this is an issue people complain about, but instead of complaining show me how I can make the same revenue through another method, show me that; if I can’t then we have a problem because people want to make more money, they want to do it more often than not in a way that’s appropriate for their audience, show them a way to do it, and if you can then you’re a genius and you’ll be a millionaire. If not then it’s one of the challenges we have to face today as a publisher online.

帕特里克：我得到那些广告，说实话，它们不会打扰我。 我知道他们为什么要打扰某些人，但他们只是不那么打扰我。 与其说它让我讨厌网络，不喜欢出版物，还不如想找到一种通过以其他方式查看其内容来使他们获得收入的方法，这并没有把我推得那么远。 我知道这使某些人望而却步，但是，我认为这是人们抱怨的问题，而不是抱怨告诉我如何通过另一种方法获得相同的收入，而是告诉我； 如果我不能，那么我们就会遇到问题，因为人们想赚更多的钱，他们想做更多的事情，而不是以一种适合其受众的方式，向他们展示这样做的方式，如果可以的话是个天才，您将成为百万富翁。 如果不是这样，那将是我们今天作为在线出版商必须面对的挑战之一。

Louis:: I think, Stephan, coming back to the original point, it seems like this is a divide that’s maybe always existed in news, right, if you look at traditional newspapers, right, the division between sort of, what, the tabloid approach and a broadsheet approach, is pretty much that, right, I mean the tabloid papers have traditionally gone this same route of analytics, and you know this headline will sell more copies and it doesn’t matter how good the content is we just want a headline that’ll sell more copies, and if that happens to be trashy celebrity gossip then that’s what we’re gonna print. And there’s always been space for both approaches in print media, and I think there will be space for both approaches in online journalism as well, in online content publication of all kinds you’ll have people with the attempt to create good content with an attention to design, and there’ll be other people who are driven by analytics to just cram the whole thing full of ads and headlines that’ll get the most clicks, and paginate out the content and do all these other dodgy tricks to try and get more ad revenue. And maybe the jarringness, though, comes in the sense that some of the businesses that were on one side of the line in the print world have gone over the other side of the line in the digital world, right. So, you know we’ve seen a lot of traditionally, what you said, reputable or respectable news sources that have sort of embraced this more tabloid style approach to their online presence. And like what I was saying earlier, I think that a lot of the newer, the newer generation of dedicated online publications, a lot of them have taken the approach of really just focusing on the design, providing quality content, and a few targeted ads with partners that give them good rates based on conversions instead of just pageview banners from old print advertisers, if that makes sense; that was a bit of a rant.

路易：我想，斯蒂芬，回到最初的观点，似乎这是新闻界可能一直存在的鸿沟，对，如果您看传统报纸，对，小报之间的区分，什么，小报方法和大型工作表方法差不多，是的，我的意思是，小报传统上都是采用相同的分析方法，而且您知道此标题将出售更多副本，而我们想要的内容有多好都没关系一个标题，它将出售更多的副本，如果碰巧是垃圾八卦的名人八卦，那么这就是我们要打印的内容。 在印刷媒体中，这两种方法总是有空间的，我认为在线新闻业中也有两种方法的空间，在各种类型的在线内容发布中，您会遇到很多人尝试着创造出色内容的尝试。进行设计，还会有其他人受到分析的推动，只是将充满广告和标题的整个内容填满，从而获得最多的点击次数，对内容进行分页，并进行所有其他狡猾的技巧来尝试并获得增加广告收入。 不过，也许这种刺耳的感觉是在某种意义上来说，印刷界线一侧的一些企业已经超越了数字世界界的另一侧，对。 因此，您知道我们说过的很多传统新闻，都是知名的或受人尊敬的新闻来源，这些新闻来源在某种程度上采用了这种更加小报的方式来展现其在线形象。 就像我之前所说的那样，我认为许多更新的，新一代的专用在线出版物中，很多都采取了只专注于设计，提供高质量内容以及一些针对性广告的方法。与合作伙伴合作，这些合作伙伴会根据转化为他们提供良好的价格，而不仅仅是老印刷广告客户的综合浏览量横幅(如果有的话)； 那有点。

Stephan: No, I agree. So do you click on ads, though, when you go to new sites?

史蒂芬：不，我同意。 那么，当您转到新网站时，是否点击了广告？

Louis:: No.

路易斯 ：：不。

Stephan: I’m interested.

史蒂芬：我很感兴趣。

Patrick: He’s gonna say no. He’s gonna say no, no, everyone says no.

帕特里克：他会拒绝。 他会说不，不，每个人都说不。

Stephan: Do you click on ads, Patrick?

斯蒂芬：你点击广告了吗，帕特里克？

Patrick: No one ever clicks on ads. I will click on an ad if I find it interesting, I mean the funny thing is, and I have this conversation with people who are technical, I’m sure you guys do too sometimes, and no one ever clicks on ads, they don’t look at ads, they don’t know ads, they just don’t see them. And my response to that is always, sure you do; unless you have them blocked through Ad Blocker or something similar, if they allure on the page advertising will have some impact on you, it might be minor, but, advertising isn’t there just to be clicked on either. Let’s not forget there’s other forms of advertising besides cost-per-click, CPM ads and ads that are meant to establish a company or for branding or whatever, and even if you don’t click on ads, ads still have value for the advertiser, for the publisher and possibly for the viewer. And, I mean, yeah, so that’s my thought on that. I have clicked on ads before and I’ll click on ads where they’re interesting, and what I always tell people, though, is to vote with your feet, right?

帕特里克：没有人点击广告。 如果我觉得有趣，我会点击广告，这是有趣的事情，并且我与技术人员进行了对话，我确定你们有时候也会这样做，而且没有人点击广告，他们没有不要看广告，他们不知道广告，就看不到广告。 我对此的回应是，始终要确保您这样做； 除非您通过Ad Blocker或类似方法阻止了它们，否则如果它们诱使页面广告对您产生一定的影响，那可能是很小的，但是，广告并不只是被单击而已。 Let's not forget there's other forms of advertising besides cost-per-click, CPM ads and ads that are meant to establish a company or for branding or whatever, and even if you don't click on ads, ads still have value for the advertiser, for the publisher and possibly for the viewer. And, I mean, yeah, so that's my thought on that. I have clicked on ads before and I'll click on ads where they're interesting, and what I always tell people, though, is to vote with your feet, right?

Louis:: Yeah, I mean I agree with you, I’m not going to say I don’t click on ads ever. I don’t click on ads on these mainstream news sites because most of the time they’re crap.

Louis: : Yeah, I mean I agree with you, I'm not going to say I don't click on ads ever. I don't click on ads on these mainstream news sites because most of the time they're crap.

Patrick: Right.

帕特里克：对。

Louis:: Most of the time they’re ads for cars or new phones or shopping or, you know, just —

Louis: : Most of the time they're ads for cars or new phones or shopping or, you know, just —

Patrick: Nothing that you partake in.

Patrick: Nothing that you partake in.

Louis:: — mass market crap. Whereas if you look at design or development sites that I read, if they have ads they’ll be for either books or courses on web design and development or new tools or things like that, that even if I don’t intend to buy it I might want to find out what it is or what it’s about, so I’ve definitely clicked on ads in a niche, it’s just that usually the stuff on the major news outlets are just not stuff that I have any interest in so I tend to ignore it. But as I was saying earlier, I don’t regularly read on those sites either because the experience, as this essay has put it, is so unpleasant that it makes it really not worth the while.

Louis: : — mass market crap. Whereas if you look at design or development sites that I read, if they have ads they'll be for either books or courses on web design and development or new tools or things like that, that even if I don't intend to buy it I might want to find out what it is or what it's about, so I've definitely clicked on ads in a niche, it's just that usually the stuff on the major news outlets are just not stuff that I have any interest in so I tend to ignore it. But as I was saying earlier, I don't regularly read on those sites either because the experience, as this essay has put it, is so unpleasant that it makes it really not worth the while.

Patrick: Yeah. Just to comment on what I was saying about voting with your feet, what I mean is that if you like someone’s content then visit their website or subscribe to it in the means that they provide. I don’t necessarily believe in the idea, though I know many do, that if I like someone’s content I’ll find some other way to read it outside of ways they allow and do what I want to it. A lot of people do that, a lot of people feel that way, I don’t feel that way; if I don’t like the experience they provide and it bothers me enough then I don’t feel that I’m also entitled to consume their content. That may seem idealistic, I suppose, but that’s just how I view it; if someone does do that to their website where they butcher it so badly or there’s ads I don’t like or the experience is so poor that I can’t enjoy the content then I don’t visit the website and they lose traffic, that’s the approach that I recommend that people take.

帕特里克：是的。 Just to comment on what I was saying about voting with your feet, what I mean is that if you like someone's content then visit their website or subscribe to it in the means that they provide. I don't necessarily believe in the idea, though I know many do, that if I like someone's content I'll find some other way to read it outside of ways they allow and do what I want to it. A lot of people do that, a lot of people feel that way, I don't feel that way; if I don't like the experience they provide and it bothers me enough then I don't feel that I'm also entitled to consume their content. That may seem idealistic, I suppose, but that's just how I view it; if someone does do that to their website where they butcher it so badly or there's ads I don't like or the experience is so poor that I can't enjoy the content then I don't visit the website and they lose traffic, that's the approach that I recommend that people take.

Stephan: See I’m not saying people should go out there and start stealing content, I think for me, you know I use Instapaper, I’ve said that before, and so sometimes I will grab an article on a news site because it won’t load fast enough on my phone, I’m just like I can’t wait for this so I just download it to Instapaper and then I’ll read it later. So am I stealing the content, I don’t know, I still read the website when I can get on my computer, you know, like the New York Times, I’ll still read it on my computer, and I’ll still look around the site, so am I stealing the content, I don’t know. What do you think, Patrick, give me your moral opinion on that.

Stephan: See I'm not saying people should go out there and start stealing content, I think for me, you know I use Instapaper, I've said that before, and so sometimes I will grab an article on a news site because it won't load fast enough on my phone, I'm just like I can't wait for this so I just download it to Instapaper and then I'll read it later. So am I stealing the content, I don't know, I still read the website when I can get on my computer, you know, like the New York Times, I'll still read it on my computer, and I'll still look around the site, so am I stealing the content, I don't know. What do you think, Patrick, give me your moral opinion on that.

Patrick: (Laughs) Uh, no, I don’t think so. I don’t think you’re stealing the content. We’re at a crossroads, I think, and we’ve been at the crossroads for a while, and I don’t know who’s winning or losing or what the longterm effect is going to be, but you know there are a lot of tools out there that are used to circumvent advertising, and those are concerning just because people want to think that there’s a limitless way to make money online, but there’s not, right, there’s essentially — everything goes back to two main things, either get money from the people who enjoy your content or you get money from the people who want to reach the people who enjoy your content, and from there there’s a lot of division. But, it’s essentially always those two things, so there’s one or two parties you’re getting money from, and it’s definitely challenging and getting harder and more difficult I would say to, in some ways, and less difficult in others, because advertising online the revenue spend the companies are allotting is going up, so that’s a good thing, but there are more companies out there and there are more tools that people are using to circumvent the advertising, whether it be Adblock or something else. So it’s definitely challenging, and what I encourage people to do is just to, you know, if they enjoy someone’s content support them and do what they can to make sure they’ll be here tomorrow.

Patrick: (Laughs) Uh, no, I don't think so. I don't think you're stealing the content. We're at a crossroads, I think, and we've been at the crossroads for a while, and I don't know who's winning or losing or what the longterm effect is going to be, but you know there are a lot of tools out there that are used to circumvent advertising, and those are concerning just because people want to think that there's a limitless way to make money online, but there's not, right, there's essentially — everything goes back to two main things, either get money from the people who enjoy your content or you get money from the people who want to reach the people who enjoy your content, and from there there's a lot of division. But, it's essentially always those two things, so there's one or two parties you're getting money from, and it's definitely challenging and getting harder and more difficult I would say to, in some ways, and less difficult in others, because advertising online the revenue spend the companies are allotting is going up, so that's a good thing, but there are more companies out there and there are more tools that people are using to circumvent the advertising, whether it be Adblock or something else. So it's definitely challenging, and what I encourage people to do is just to, you know, if they enjoy someone's content support them and do what they can to make sure they'll be here tomorrow.

Stephan: So here’s a question for you guys, just kind of a theoretical question. If you had a donate button on a site for someone whose content you really enjoyed, would you prefer to do that or would you prefer to click on an ad for them, which is more genuine?

Stephan: So here's a question for you guys, just kind of a theoretical question. If you had a donate button on a site for someone whose content you really enjoyed, would you prefer to do that or would you prefer to click on an ad for them, which is more genuine?

Louis:: Oh, the donate is definitely more genuine, it’s definitely a clearer expression of, hey; it’s a tip jar, right? You know, this is great content and here’s two bucks or here’s whatever; clicking on an ad I’m sort of indirectly supporting them by supporting someone else, and maybe it’s disingenuous because I click on the ad and then not buy the thing. If I’m clicking on the ad just to provide them with revenue then that’s needless, right, that’s costing this other company that’s advertising money to make the site look less pretty so that I can give a small fraction of money to the person that I like their content, right, that’s needlessly circuitous, but does it work better than donate, and I guess it depends on how direct and how personal a connection you have with your readers. There are some people whose blog I read that if they asked for donations I would definitely give it to them because they’ve established themselves as a clear personality that’s doing this because they love to do it, and I like their website and I like the content they put out and I know who they are, I’d give those people money, but there are some other organizations that I just don’t have that connection and it might be a bigger leap to click donate, right?

Louis: : Oh, the donate is definitely more genuine, it's definitely a clearer expression of, hey; it's a tip jar, right? You know, this is great content and here's two bucks or here's whatever; clicking on an ad I'm sort of indirectly supporting them by supporting someone else, and maybe it's disingenuous because I click on the ad and then not buy the thing. If I'm clicking on the ad just to provide them with revenue then that's needless, right, that's costing this other company that's advertising money to make the site look less pretty so that I can give a small fraction of money to the person that I like their content, right, that's needlessly circuitous, but does it work better than donate, and I guess it depends on how direct and how personal a connection you have with your readers. There are some people whose blog I read that if they asked for donations I would definitely give it to them because they've established themselves as a clear personality that's doing this because they love to do it, and I like their website and I like the content they put out and I know who they are, I'd give those people money, but there are some other organizations that I just don't have that connection and it might be a bigger leap to click donate, right?

Patrick: I agree with Louis: about clicking ads to click ads, that’s a bad thing, don’t do it, it throws the whole value proposition out of whack for everyone, it inflates numbers for publishers, it inflates numbers for advertisers, it’s just bad. So you don’t wan to click ads just to support a publication, click an ad if you have any interest in it; if that’s why you’re clicking it then it’s genuine and do it. You know and as far as like donate, donate buttons, donate buttons to me I would never add one because they look desperate to me, and maybe this is just a matter of verbiage, right, and a semantical thing I’m saying, but instead of having a donate button play with micro-payments however you can. Now maybe that is subscription, maybe they can subscribe to your content for exclusive content or to see it first or to see it without ads, you know, make that sort of thing available, three dollars a month, five dollars a month, ten dollars a month, depending on the value of what you provide and how much you think you can get; I think it’s good to have that. Now as far as what would I do, you know, right now I don’t subscribe to any publications like that, and I am in a place financially where I don’t necessarily want to do that right now, but when I’m not in that place I would definitely consider it. If given the choice between viewing ads or paying something, I would say I’m more likely to want to just view ads or have ads on the page, and have myself be counted in whatever analytics program is serving the ads, and then I’ll benefit them in that way as well, but if you can you know it’s great to provide options to your readers.

Patrick: I agree with Louis: about clicking ads to click ads, that's a bad thing, don't do it, it throws the whole value proposition out of whack for everyone, it inflates numbers for publishers, it inflates numbers for advertisers, it's just bad. So you don't wan to click ads just to support a publication, click an ad if you have any interest in it; if that's why you're clicking it then it's genuine and do it. You know and as far as like donate, donate buttons, donate buttons to me I would never add one because they look desperate to me, and maybe this is just a matter of verbiage, right, and a semantical thing I'm saying, but instead of having a donate button play with micro-payments however you can. Now maybe that is subscription, maybe they can subscribe to your content for exclusive content or to see it first or to see it without ads, you know, make that sort of thing available, three dollars a month, five dollars a month, ten dollars a month, depending on the value of what you provide and how much you think you can get; I think it's good to have that. Now as far as what would I do, you know, right now I don't subscribe to any publications like that, and I am in a place financially where I don't necessarily want to do that right now, but when I'm not in that place I would definitely consider it. If given the choice between viewing ads or paying something, I would say I'm more likely to want to just view ads or have ads on the page, and have myself be counted in whatever analytics program is serving the ads, and then I'll benefit them in that way as well, but if you can you know it's great to provide options to your readers.

Stephan: So maybe I’ll do a little experiment and say support my writing and have a little donate button and just see what happens on my site.

Stephan: So maybe I'll do a little experiment and say support my writing and have a little donate button and just see what happens on my site.

Patrick: (Laughs) for badice.com?

Patrick: (Laughs) for badice.com?

Stephan: Yeah, yeah, I don’t know, maybe I will.

Stephan: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, maybe I will.

Patrick: (Laughs)

Patrick: (Laughs)

Stephan: We’ll see. What’s so funny about that?

Stephan: We'll see. What's so funny about that?

Patrick: I might just give you money.

Patrick: I might just give you money.

Stephan: (Laughs)

斯蒂芬：(笑)

Patrick: I don’t know; you got to have regular content.

Patrick: I don't know; you got to have regular content.

Stephan: I do have regular content now; I’ve been blogging a lot more, thank you very much.

Stephan: I do have regular content now; I've been blogging a lot more, thank you very much.

Patrick: Now? Okay, yeah.

Patrick: Now? Okay, yeah.

Stephan: Yeah, see; see you don’t even read it so it doesn’t matter.

Stephan: Yeah, see; see you don't even read it so it doesn't matter.

Patrick: No, no, I’ve subscribed, November 30th, November 29th, November 13th, November 4th, four posts in November.

Patrick: No, no, I've subscribed, November 30th, November 29th, November 13th, November 4th, four posts in November.

Stephan: Yeah, that’s pretty good.

Stephan: Yeah, that's pretty good.

Louis:: That’s not bad.

Louis: : That's not bad.

Patrick: (Laughs)

Patrick: (Laughs)

Stephan: It’s quality stuff, man, it’s quality; quality over quantity (laughter).

Stephan: It's quality stuff, man, it's quality; quality over quantity (laughter).

Patrick: Put up a pay wall!

Patrick: Put up a pay wall!

Louis:: Alright, I think we should wrap this up and go to spotlights because it’s turned into kind of a long discussion.

Louis: : Alright, I think we should wrap this up and go to spotlights because it's turned into kind of a long discussion.

Patrick: I’ll go first, good discussion, guys. My spotlight is a skit that was on Saturday Night Live on this past Saturday, it is called Batman, it is an SNL digital short, Andy Samberg as Batman, Steve Buscemi as Commissioner Gordon, what else do I need to say (laughter), I think that sets it up perfectly, and if you haven’t seen it yet go check it out. Let’s say Batman is a little too attached to Commissioner Gordon.

Patrick: I'll go first, good discussion, guys. My spotlight is a skit that was on Saturday Night Live on this past Saturday, it is called Batman, it is an SNL digital short, Andy Samberg as Batman, Steve Buscemi as Commissioner Gordon, what else do I need to say (laughter), I think that sets it up perfectly, and if you haven't seen it yet go check it out. Let's say Batman is a little too attached to Commissioner Gordon.

Louis:: (Laughs) Ah, that’s terrifying. I will have a look.

Louis: : (Laughs) Ah, that's terrifying. I will have a look.

Stephan: I can go next. I have an article in the New York Times called Do You Suffer from Decision Fatigue. And it’s just a good read about all the decisions we make everyday and kind of the toll it takes on us mentally, physically, physiologically, just some interesting stuff, and I’d say we all need to read it just so, you know; everyday you’re making tons and tons of decisions, and it does play a part, it does stress you out without you even knowing it, which is interesting.

Stephan: I can go next. I have an article in the New York Times called Do You Suffer from Decision Fatigue. And it's just a good read about all the decisions we make everyday and kind of the toll it takes on us mentally, physically, physiologically, just some interesting stuff, and I'd say we all need to read it just so, you know; everyday you're making tons and tons of decisions, and it does play a part, it does stress you out without you even knowing it, which is interesting.

Louis:: Awesome. I love this kind of stuff; I’ll definitely give it a read. My spotlight this week is surprise, surprise, web development related. One of the designers, I believe, at GitHub, Director of Design at GitHub, sorry, posted this just today which is this Ruby based library that has the purpose of generating documentation for CSS. So it’s a lot like these other documentation generators for programming languages except for CSS, and it can be used either with plain CSS or if you’re using a preprocessor like Sass or LESS, and obviously it’s just been released on GitHub so it’s a brand new project, but I was having a look at it and someone who has a pretty constant inability to organize my CSS in any way, shape or form, it’s just one giant file filled with stuff, and I pretty much use control F to find the thing I want to edit, this looks like a really good way of organizing and providing clear documentation, sort of saying, alright, so this dot star is a button that lets you favorite your content and it looks like this, and in a hover state it’ll look like this, and it generates out some pretty good-looking documentation. So definitely keep an eye on this as it develops.

Louis: : Awesome. I love this kind of stuff; I'll definitely give it a read. My spotlight this week is surprise, surprise, web development related. One of the designers, I believe, at GitHub, Director of Design at GitHub, sorry, posted this just today which is this Ruby based library that has the purpose of generating documentation for CSS. So it's a lot like these other documentation generators for programming languages except for CSS, and it can be used either with plain CSS or if you're using a preprocessor like Sass or LESS, and obviously it's just been released on GitHub so it's a brand new project, but I was having a look at it and someone who has a pretty constant inability to organize my CSS in any way, shape or form, it's just one giant file filled with stuff, and I pretty much use control F to find the thing I want to edit, this looks like a really good way of organizing and providing clear documentation, sort of saying, alright, so this dot star is a button that lets you favorite your content and it looks like this, and in a hover state it'll look like this, and it generates out some pretty good-looking documentation. So definitely keep an eye on this as it develops.

Patrick: Sweet.

Patrick: Sweet.

Stephan: What’s this written in?

Stephan: What's this written in?

Louis:: It’s written in Ruby, so he’s written — he wrote a specification for it which is just how to write your documentation, which obviously is just in your CSS as comments at the top of each declaration, and he’s written a Ruby library which takes that and generates sort of an HTML documentation file from it.

Louis: : It's written in Ruby, so he's written — he wrote a specification for it which is just how to write your documentation, which obviously is just in your CSS as comments at the top of each declaration, and he's written a Ruby library which takes that and generates sort of an HTML documentation file from it.

Stephan: Yeah, that’s cool, that’s really nice. And in the corporate world documentation rules, so.

Stephan: Yeah, that's cool, that's really nice. And in the corporate world documentation rules, so.

Louis:: (Laughs) And looking at the — so he’s got an example screenshot, I don’t know if you saw this, Stephan, of what the sort of the output style guide looks like.

Louis: : (Laughs) And looking at the — so he's got an example screenshot, I don't know if you saw this, Stephan, of what the sort of the output style guide looks like.

Stephan: Yeah.

斯蒂芬：是的。

Louis:: And it really looks fantastic. I’m like if I came unto a new project and had to write CSS and I had a style guide like this, that would be, you know, a dream.

Louis: : And it really looks fantastic. I'm like if I came unto a new project and had to write CSS and I had a style guide like this, that would be, you know, a dream.

Stephan: Yeah, I mean that’d be really helpful, and I’m not even really into CSS, but I could see where this is really useful for someone new to a project, it’d be great.

Stephan: Yeah, I mean that'd be really helpful, and I'm not even really into CSS, but I could see where this is really useful for someone new to a project, it'd be great.

Louis:: Awesome. So that’s a wrap for this week. I think we lived up to our expectations for the last panel show of the year, I think we really killed it, congratulations (laughs).

Louis: : Awesome. So that's a wrap for this week. I think we lived up to our expectations for the last panel show of the year, I think we really killed it, congratulations (laughs).

Patrick: It’s dead.

Patrick: It's dead.

Stephan: It’s dead.

Stephan: It's dead.

Patrick: There will be no more.

Patrick: There will be no more.

Louis:: Yeah, so it’s been a great year, guys, thanks for all your warm welcome on the show, I’ve had a lot of fun.

Louis: : Yeah, so it's been a great year, guys, thanks for all your warm welcome on the show, I've had a lot of fun.

Patrick: Awesome. Thank you, you’ve done a great job.

帕特里克：太棒了。 Thank you, you've done a great job.

Louis:: And I’ll be back next week with an interview show, and then we’ll be seeing — we’ll be, I don’t even know how to say this; we’ll be seeing the listeners in the New Year in some way, shape or form.

Louis: : And I'll be back next week with an interview show, and then we'll be seeing — we'll be, I don't even know how to say this; we'll be seeing the listeners in the New Year in some way, shape or form.

Patrick: We’ll be coming back with a vengeance, as I told Kevin (laughter). That was my guarantee; you’ll be back with a vengeance in January! Yes, dramatic.

Patrick: We'll be coming back with a vengeance, as I told Kevin (laughter). That was my guarantee; you'll be back with a vengeance in January! Yes, dramatic.

So let’s take it around the table. I am Patrick O’Keefe for the iFroggy Network; I blog at managingcommunities.com, on Twitter @ifroggy, i-f-r-o-g-g-y.

So let's take it around the table. I am Patrick O'Keefe for the iFroggy Network; I blog at managingcommunities.com , on Twitter @ifroggy , ifroggy.

Stephan: I’m Stephan Segraves, you can find me at badice.com, and I’m on Twitter @ssegraves.

Stephan: I'm Stephan Segraves, you can find me at badice.com , and I'm on Twitter @ssegraves .

Louis:: You can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, that’s sitepoint d-o-t-c-o-m, and you can follow me on Twitter @rssaddict. If you want to find out more about the Podcast go to sitepoint.com/podcast, that’s where you can find all of our past episodes, leave a comment on this show to let us know what you thought and also subscribe to the feed if you want to get it automatically, and if you want to hit us by email that’s podcast@sitepoint.com. Thanks for listening everybody, and to Patrick and Stephan wishing you both a happy New Year and I’ll talk to you again in January.

Louis: : You can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom , that's sitepoint dotcom, and you can follow me on Twitter @rssaddict . If you want to find out more about the Podcast go to sitepoint.com/podcast , that's where you can find all of our past episodes, leave a comment on this show to let us know what you thought and also subscribe to the feed if you want to get it automatically, and if you want to hit us by email that's podcast@sitepoint.com. Thanks for listening everybody, and to Patrick and Stephan wishing you both a happy New Year and I'll talk to you again in January.

Patrick: Happy holidays.

Patrick: Happy holidays.

Stephan: Yep, have a good one.

Stephan: Yep, have a good one.

Theme music by Mike Mella.

Mike Mella的主题音乐。

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