SitePoint播客＃71：不断发展的互联网

Episode 71 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week your hosts are Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy), Brad Williams (@williamsba), and Kevin Yank (@sentience).

SitePoint Podcast的第71集现已发布！本周的主持人是Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )，Brad Williams( @williamsba )和Kevin Yank( @sentience )。

下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)

You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。这是链接：

SitePoint Podcast #71: The Revolving Internet (MP3, 47.7MB, 52:01)

SitePoint播客＃71：不断发展的互联网 (MP3，47.7MB，52:01)

剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)

Here are the topics covered in this episode:

以下是本集中介绍的主题：

WordPress vs Thesis: The GPL and WordPress Themes
WordPress vs Thesis：GPL和WordPress主题
Google Monitoring Mouse Movements?
Google监视鼠标移动？
The New York Times Calls for Government Oversight Over Google Search
纽约时报呼吁政府对Google搜索进行监督
Reddit Questions Analytics Used by Advertisers
广告商使用的Reddit问题分析
MSNBC Redesign Sacrifices Pageviews For Usability
MSNBC重新设计牺牲了页面浏览量以提高可用性

Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/71.

浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/71中显示的参考链接的完整列表。

主持人聚光灯 (Host Spotlights)

Brad: The Revolving Internet

布拉德：不断发展的互联网
Kevin: humans.txt

凯文： humans.txt
Patrick: Crush the Castle 2

帕特里克：粉碎城堡2

显示成绩单 (Show Transcript)

Kevin: July 23rd, 2010. A war of words in the world of WordPress, Google might monitor your mouse, and the search for sensible traffic stats. This is the SitePoint Podcast #71: The Revolving Internet.

凯文： 2010年7月23日。在WordPress世界中，一场口水战，Google可能会监视您的鼠标，并搜索明智的流量统计信息。这是SitePoint播客＃71：不断发展的互联网。

And welcome to the SitePoint podcast! A strangely non-technical show this week. I’m usually the one who contributes all the code-y technical subjects, guys, and then I look at them and I go there’s no way we can cover that in a podcast; no one wants to hear me read out code on a podcast. But there’s none of that this week, it’s all this search stuff, there’s analytic stuff, and Brad, there’s a legal issue.

欢迎来到SitePoint播客！本周发生了一场非技术性的演出。通常，我是负责所有代码Y技术主题的人，然后我看一下它们，然后我就无法在播客中介绍它了。没有人想听到我在播客上读出代码。但是这周什么都没有，只有搜索内容，分析性内容，而布拉德(Brad)则有法律问题。

Brad: There’s a storm a brewin’ in the WordPress world as they say, and it’s actually between the WordPress platform and a very popular WordPress theme called Thesis. And basically what it boils down to is WordPress itself is released under the GPL license, version 2 specifically, which essentially states anything that is a derivative work of WordPress also has to be released under GPL, that’s essentially how the GPL license functions. The problem is that Thesis is not licensed under the GPL; it’s actually under a different software license, a proprietary license, so WordPress and more specifically Matt Mullenweg who’s one of the founders of WordPress, one of the original developers, has actually gone on the attack against Chris Pearson who is the developer of Thesis, essentially trying to get him to switch his license over to be GPL compliant.

布拉德：正如他们所说，WordPress世界正在酝酿一场风暴，实际上是在WordPress平台和一个非常流行的WordPress主题Thesis之间。基本上可以归结为WordPress本身是根据GPL许可证(特别是第2版)发布的，它实质上规定了WordPress派生作品的任何内容也必须在GPL下发布，这实质上就是GPL许可证的工作方式。问题在于Thesis没有获得GPL许可；它实际上是在不同的软件许可下，即专有许可下，所以WordPress，更具体地说，是WordPress的创始人之一，最初的开发人员之一的Matt Mullenweg，实际上是在攻击Thesis的开发人员Chris Pearson，试图让他将其许可证转换为符合GPL。

Kevin: And he’s having none of it.

凯文：他什么都没有。

Brad: Absolutely none of it. And this all started basically with a battle back and forth on Twitter as they normally do these days.

布拉德：绝对没有。基本上，这一切都是从与往常一样在Twitter上来回打仗开始的。

Kevin: This issue of selling themes, it’s something I’ve heard come up now and then. So this isn’t a new issue, it’s been a few years this has been debated, right?

凯文：这个主题的销售问题，这是我不时听到的。所以这不是一个新问题，已经讨论了好几年了，对吗？

Brad: Yeah, and just to be clear, and this is just reading a lot of the blog posts, and there’s a lot of them about this topic, this isn’t specifically about selling themes or making money from themes or making money off WordPress at all, it’s all about the license. So you can certainly have a GPL compliant theme or plug-in and sell it and be completely within your right under the GPL.

布拉德：是的，要明确一点，这只是阅读了许多博客文章，其中有很多与此主题有关，这并不是专门卖主题，从主题中赚钱或通过WordPress赚钱。完全是关于许可证的。因此，您当然可以拥有符合GPL的主题或插件，然后出售并出售它，并且完全受GPL管辖。

Kevin: You can?

凯文：可以吗？

Brad: Yeah, absolutely. The only thing that it states is if you do sell it you have to provide the source code, the original source code, with that like.

布拉德：是的，绝对。它唯一说明的是，如果您确实出售了它，则必须提供源代码(原始源代码)之类的内容。

Kevin: Ah.

凯文：啊。

Brad: So then if I were to purchase your theme I could turn around and modify it however I want without worry about breaking any kind of software license, and I could redistribute it if I want. So it’s definitely a tricky topic because there hasn’t been a lot of court cases around the GPL, there’s been a few but no kind of definitive this is the answer. So what it really boils down to is a theme in WordPress, or any other platform, is that considered a derivative work of the WordPress platform itself? And that’s really what the argument is.

布拉德：因此，如果我要购买您的主题，则可以转过来修改它，但是我希望不必担心会破坏任何一种软件许可，并且可以根据需要重新分发它。因此，这绝对是一个棘手的话题，因为围绕GPL的法庭案件并不多，虽然只有少数，但没有确定的答案，这就是答案。那么，真正归结为WordPress或任何其他平台中的主题，是否被认为是WordPress平台本身的衍生作品？这就是论点。

Kevin: The two perspectives as I read it is that on Matt Mullenweg’s side he considers a theme to be a piece of software that uses WordPress as a library. And so if you install Thesis on your WordPress blog then someone comes and wants to view a particular blog post, Thesis fires up and says, oh, WordPress I need the text of the post, WordPress I need this, WordPress I need I need that. And every time it asks WordPress for something it’s using a piece of the WordPress functionality, and if you do that sort of thing with a piece of GPL code it is well accepted, if not necessarily tested in court, as you pointed out, but it is well accepted and understood that if you do that, as you say, you have to release the source code of the software that you build. The opposing point of view from Chris Pearson seems to be that themes are not pieces of software that use WordPress; rather WordPress is like a runtime that runs themes. Just like if you buy a record player and you set your vinyl LP on top of it and it starts spinning, that LP is not built on top of the record player, the record player is a tool for playing LPs and therefore if the record player were constructed under GPL you wouldn’t have to release your vinyl record design. I know I’m stretching the metaphor terribly here, but that’s kind of — that’s what he is proposing. And it doesn’t seem like he has the force of the masses on his side with that one. I know I’ve contributed to one or two open source projects over the years, and GPL code, well, if you’re working on a GPL project GPL is taken very seriously. And it seems like it’s taken even more seriously when you’re not working on GPL code. I contributed to a project that was released under a much less restrictive license than GPL, and every time I contributed something you had to sort of sign an electronic waiver that said, yeah, none of the code that is in my contribution is licensed under GPL. Because if it were, they call it a viral license because if you use anything in your project that is GPL licensed your whole project has to be GPL licensed.

凯文：在我读到这两种观点时，马特·穆伦维格(Matt Mullenweg)认为他的主题是一款使用WordPress作为库的软件。因此，如果您在WordPress博客上安装Thesis，那么会有人来查看特定的博客帖子，Thesis会启动并说，哦，WordPress，我需要发布文本，WordPress，我需要这个，WordPress，我需要那个，。并且每次它向WordPress请求某项功能时，它都在使用一部分WordPress功能，并且如果您使用一段GPL代码来执行此类操作，则它会被很好地接受，即使您不必指出，也不必在法庭上对其进行测试，但是它确实是可以接受的。众所周知，如果您这样做，您必须释放所构建软件的源代码。克里斯·皮尔森(Chris Pearson)的对立观点似乎是，主题不是使用WordPress的软件；而是主题。 WordPress就像运行主题的运行时一样。就像您购买唱片机并将乙烯基LP放在唱片机顶部并开始旋转一样，即唱片并非建立在唱片机的顶部，唱片机是播放唱片的工具，因此如果唱片机是根据GPL构建的，因此您无需发布黑胶唱片设计。我知道我在这里要隐喻地延伸，但这就是他提出的意思。而且似乎他在那一边没有群众的力量。我知道这些年来我已经为一个或两个开源项目做出了贡献，而且，如果您正在从事GPL项目，那么GPL代码非常重要。而且，当您不使用GPL代码时，它似乎变得更加受到重视。我为一个项目提供了一个比GPL少得多的限制性许可而发布的项目，并且每次我做出一些贡献时，您都必须签署一份电子豁免声明，说是的，我所贡献的代码均未获得GPL的许可。因为如果有的话，他们称它为病毒许可证，因为如果您在项目中使用了GPL许可的任何内容，则整个项目都必须是GPL许可的。

Brad: And that’s one of the points that after the big blowup through Twitter and Andrew Warner of Mixergy actually had Chris Pearson and Matt Mullenweg on live to kind of battle back and forth almost, all of the core devs of WordPress and some other developers actually dove in the Thesis code, and they found full chunks of WordPress code that was almost line for line pulled directly from WordPress and then used within Thesis.

布拉德：这是在Twitter和Mixergy的安德鲁·沃纳(Andrew Warner)经历了大爆炸之后，实际上是克里斯·皮尔森(Chris Pearson)和马特·穆伦维格(Matt Mullenweg)进行了实战，几乎是来回打仗的观点之一，WordPress的所有核心开发人员和其他一些开发人员实际上参与了Thesis代码，他们发现了完整的WordPress代码块，这些代码几乎是直接从WordPress中提取出来的，然后在Thesis中使用。

Kevin: Ouch. Yeah.

凯文：哦。是的

Brad: So that’s obviously a clear infringement on the GPL. Now without that is, you know, if that code hadn’t existed, and Pearson states it won’t exist in the next version that he’s working on, but even if it doesn’t exist is it still considered a violation of the GPL if his theme is not a part of the GPL? And this is, I mean this is a really interesting topic especially if it goes to court because there’s a lot of very popular open source platforms like through Drupal and Joomla that are all licensed under the GPL. So this could really set the precedent on what — is a theme part of the GPL; there’s a plug-in or module considered that has to fall into that GPL. So it’s certainly one we’ll keep our eyes on.

布拉德：这显然是对GPL的明显侵权。现在没有了，您知道，如果该代码不存在，并且Pearson声明在他正在开发的下一个版本中该代码将不存在，但是即使它不存在，它仍然被认为违反了GPL。他的主题不是GPL的一部分吗？这就是我的意思，这是一个非常有趣的话题，尤其是在上法庭的时候，因为有很多非常流行的开源平台，例如通过Drupal和Joomla，这些平台均已获得GPL许可。因此，这确实可以为GPL的主题部分设立先例。有一个必须包含在该GPL中的插件或模块。因此，这肯定是我们将继续关注的目标。

Kevin: It’s something that can be blundered into, I think, as a naïve software developer. It’s usually, you know, when you set out there to build your very first WordPress theme I suspect that software licenses are not the first thing on your radar. This is something that Mullenweg has said, that if you want to contribute to a blog platform and the core beliefs of the GPL, the culture of the GPL, is not something you agree with then you should be looking somewhere elsewhere than WordPress. And I kind of agree with that. There are open source projects out there that are in the GPL world and then there are those that aren’t, and there’s kind of a really strong wall between those two. If you want to play in the arena of GPL software like WordPress, if you want to be a developer in that, you have to respect the hundreds and thousands of other developers who have given of their time to build a complicated software product like WordPress, and all of them did that with the understanding that their code was being contributed to something that was protected by the GPL so that no one could benefit from their work without paying it forward, so to speak, without releasing their further work to further benefit the masses. This is the theory of the GPL that if everyone is working agrees with this then everyone is working towards the greater good, but for someone like Chris Pearson to come along, build Thesis and say, no, I’m drawing the line here, my work is mine to benefit from and I don’t care whose shoulders I’m standing on top of, that’s I think what the emotional issue is here and why so many people are upset about this.

凯文：我认为，作为一个幼稚的软件开发人员，这是很容易被误解的。您通常知道，当您着手建立第一个WordPress主题时，我怀疑软件许可证并不是您的第一要务。这是Mullenweg所说的，如果您想为博客平台做出贡献，并且GPL的核心信念，GPL的文化与您不同意，那么您应该在WordPress之外的其他地方寻找。我对此表示同意。在GPL世界中，有一些开源项目存在，而在GPL世界中则没有，因此这两者之间确实有很强的隔墙。如果您想参与WordPress之类的GPL软件领域，如果您想成为其中的开发人员，则必须尊重成百上千的其他开发人员花时间来构建诸如WordPress之类的复杂软件产品，他们都这样做了，因为他们的理解是他们的代码是为受GPL保护的事物做出的贡献，因此，如果没有付出前期费用的话，任何人都不会从他们的工作中受益，可以说，如果不发布进一步的工作以进一步使GPL受益的话。群众。这是GPL的理论，如果每个人都在同意这一点，那么每个人都在朝着更大的利益努力，但是对于像Chris Pearson这样的人来说，建立论文并说，不，我在这里划清界限，我的工作是我的工作，我不在乎我站在谁的肩膀上，这就是我认为这里的情感问题以及为什么这么多人对此感到不高兴。

Patrick: I’ve been running phpBBhacks.com for ten years, so I’ve seen far, far more open source politics than I care to see in my life.

帕特里克(Patrick)：我已经经营phpBBhacks.com已经十年了，所以我看到的开源政治比我一生中所看到的要多得多。

Kevin: (laughs)

凯文：(笑)

Patrick: And they can get very, very highly charged, very political, very nasty at times. I mean you think open source you think flowers and roses and things, but that’s not exactly how it always works out. I don’t necessarily agree with everything that’s happening with regard to WordPress and how they’re handling this necessarily, I think maybe some of this is a disservice; they’ve been on sort of a crackdown lately. And I really started to talk about it and think about it at WordCamp Raleigh in May just because of different things that had been happening around the WordCamps where they actually said that if you ran a non-GPL theme you could not speak at a WordCamp in the world period. So that was an interesting thing. I think you can go too far; when you’re an open source project you have to be careful how you exert control. I think this is a subject that a lot of people can rally around, but there are a lot of gray area subjects where applying the GPL in letter, in spirit, is maybe not the best thing to do because when you are so open and you are so freely available, when you do exert that control finally you have a group of people who is used to doing whatever they want for the most part and now they see you as controlling them. So you have to be really careful. On this particular issue I do think that — I don’t think Pearson is correct, and this is what we’ve always done at phpBBhacks.com as well, and phpBB is GPL and a very popular GPL project at that, we’ve always treated the code of the style as GPL, graphics and CSS not necessarily, graphics not by default certainly, because graphics obviously work on their own, they don’t appropriate any of the phpBB code, so those have always been treated by us at least to be copyrighted elements, whereas the theme code itself is usually using some form of phpBB code, it kind of has to to function, so that’s always been GPL. We’ve always gone beyond that standard with our database and always asked author permission as well and treated that as very sacred. But code GPL, CSS and graphics not by default I would say, so that’s what I expect to happen here. Now will it take a lawsuit, I think it’s an interesting thing because they have been talking about this for years, as you said, and I was talking to somebody at WordCamp Raleigh, I said at the end of the day talk, I get sick of talk, like are we gonna talk about this forever? Are you guys gonna go in the street and fight, you know, have a fistfight? Are you gonna go to court and file a lawsuit? Just go ahead and do it already because you’ve been talking about this for years and at the end of the day you’re just kind of wasting a lot of people’s time here. So either we’re going to do it or we’re not and we just move on. So I don’t know what the end result is here, but I would like to see an end result.

帕特里克(Patrick)：有时他们会受到非常非常高的指控，非常政治化，非常讨厌。我的意思是，您认为开放源代码时，您会想到鲜花，玫瑰和其他东西，但这并不总是总是可行的。我不一定同意有关WordPress发生的所有事情以及他们如何处理此问题，我认为也许其中有些是有害的。他们最近一直在进行镇压。我真的开始谈论它并在5月的WordCamp Raleigh上进行思考，只是因为WordCamps周围发生了不同的事情，他们实际上说，如果您运行非GPL主题，您将无法在WordCamp中讲话。世界时期。这是一件有趣的事情。我认为你可以走得太远；当您是一个开源项目时，必须小心如何控制。我认为这是一个很多人都可以参加的主题，但是在精神上，以字母形式应用GPL可能不是很多最好的事情，因为当您如此开放并且您如此自由可用，当您最终行使控制权时，就会有一群人习惯于大部分时间做自己想做的事情，现在他们将您视为控制他们的人。因此，您必须非常小心。在这个特定问题上，我确实认为-我认为Pearson是不正确的，这也是我们一直在phpBBhacks.com上所做的事情，而phpBB是GPL和当时非常受欢迎的GPL项目，总是将样式代码视为GPL，图形和CSS，不一定默认为图形，因为图形显然可以独立工作，因此它们不适合任何phpBB代码，因此我们始终将其视为至少是受版权保护的元素，而主题代码本身通常使用某种形式的phpBB代码，但它必须起作用，因此始终是GPL。我们的数据库始终超越了这一标准，并且总是要求作者许可，并认为这是非常神圣的。但是我不会说默认情况下的代码GPL，CSS和图形，所以这就是我希望在这里发生的事情。现在要提起诉讼，我认为这是一件有趣的事情，因为正如您所说，他们多年来一直在谈论此事，而我正在与WordCamp Raleigh的某人交谈，我在谈话结束时说，我生病了就像我们要永远谈论这个一样吗？你们会在街上打架吗？您要去法院提起诉讼吗？只是继续进行就可以了，因为您多年来一直在谈论这个问题，而归根结底，您只是在浪费很多人在这里的时间。所以我们要么要做，要么不这样做，我们继续前进。因此，我不知道最终结果是什么，但我希望看到最终结果。

Kevin: Yeah.

凯文：是的。

Brad: Along the same lines Matt Mullenweg actually talked with the Software Freedom Law Center to clarify whether WordPress themes fall under the GPL. And their conclusion was actually that the PHP, like you said Patrick, the PHP files that leverage WordPress’ copyrighted code are protected by the GPL; however, images, CSS, JavaScript are not, so you can actually have a split license on a WordPress theme and still be completely within the GPL and still not have to worry about any type of a lawsuit. So it’s, you’re right Kevin, if you’re getting into WordPress themes I mean this is something most people probably never think about until it’s too late and maybe a lawsuit’s in their face. So you can read about this stuff all day and all night, but we’ll see if something happens, if WordPress and Mullenweg step up and actually take this to court which it looks like the next step because there certainly wasn’t any kind of resolution on the Mixergy interview.

布拉德：同样，马特·穆伦维格(Matt Mullenweg)实际上与软件自由法律中心进行了交谈，以澄清WordPress主题是否属于GPL。他们的结论实际上是，就像您说的Patrick一样，利用WordPress版权代码PHP文件受GPL保护。但是，图像，CSS，JavaScript却没有，因此您实际上可以在WordPress主题上获得拆分许可，并且仍然完全在GPL内，而不必担心任何类型的诉讼。所以，您说得对，凯文(Kevin)，如果您进入WordPress主题，我的意思是这是大多数人可能永远不会想到的事情，除非为时已晚，而且可能是官司。因此，您可以一整天整夜都可以阅读有关这些内容的信息，但是如果WordPress和Mullenweg站起来并实际将其告上法庭，我们将看看是否会发生什么，因为这肯定没有任何意义Mixergy采访的解决方案。

Patrick: And you know the thing about it is the Software Freedom Law Center I don’t know them necessarily, but from their title I’m gonna guess there’s a little bit of bias there maybe toward open source projects, maybe, maybe.

帕特里克：而且你知道的是软件自由法律中心，我不一定认识他们，但是从他们的头衔来看，我猜那里可能对开源项目有些偏见，也许吧。

Kevin: Maybe.

凯文：也许吧。

Patrick: So everybody has their opinion in this, and like I said, opinions have been heard for two, three years now; I mean something has to come to a head sooner or later. Let’s start suing each other or doing something other than browbeating each other using our communities of thousands of people to attack one another, let’s do something else.

帕特里克(Patrick)：因此，每个人对此都有自己的见解，就像我说的那样，已经有两年，三年了。我的意思是迟早要有些事情。让我们开始互相起诉或做其他事情，而不是利用我们成千上万的人互相殴打来互相殴打，让我们做些其他的事情。

Brad: Sue or get off the pot.

布拉德：起诉或下锅。

Patrick: Basically, yes, but one other thing I wanted to say was that part of the Thesis thing, and I will say I have a Thesis license, I don’t use it, I won’t use it, I just don’t want to use it at this time, but I have purchased it and I’ve looked at it, and part of the allure of Thesis is that the backend features that it has for easy customization. So those tie right into the WordPress admin area so they of course will most likely be GPL. I mean that’s part of the allure of the theme. It’s not a really image heavy theme. Yes, the CSS is part of it is powerful, whatever, but I mean the main part of Thesis that makes it so great to people is that coding, are those features in the admin area. I mean, yeah, it’s definitely a powerful thing. That’s why people buy it — not for images.

帕特里克：基本上，是的，但是我想说的另一件事是论文论的一部分，我会说我有论文论证，我不使用它，我不会使用它，我只是不我不想在这个时候使用它，但是我已经购买了它，并且已经看了它，Thesis的魅力之一就是它具有易于定制的后端功能。因此，那些人直接进入WordPress管理区域，因此他们很可能将很可能是GPL。我的意思是这是主题魅力的一部分。这不是一个真正的图像重主题。是的，无论如何，CSS都是强大的一部分，但是我的意思是让论文对人们如此重要的主要部分是编码，即管理领域的那些功能。是的，这绝对是一件有力的事情。这就是人们购买它的原因-而非图片。

Brad: It’s the framework.

布拉德：这就是框架。

Kevin: Yeah, Thesis is one of these themes that it gives you groundwork, a foundation that you are then expected to skin yourself, right Brad?

凯文：是的，论文是这些主题之一，它为您提供了基础，这是您希望为自己打基础的基础，对吗布拉德？

Brad: Yeah, absolutely, so it’s a theme framework so like Patrick said, I mean even though you can place your CSS and JavaScript in a separate license, technically Thesis there’s probably maybe five percent of the code base behind Thesis would actually fall under that. I mean the majority of it is PHP code, you know, it’s a framework, it’s made so that there is a ton of backend options that you can easily point and click to change your site around. But it isn’t very graphics heavy, it’s not like you’re buying a stylized, designed theme, you’re buying a framework that allows you to kind of develop the theme however you want. And I think that’s probably why Chris Pearson is a little concerned because he can’t really do a split license, it’s not really gonna benefit him the way he wants it.

布拉德：是的，绝对是这样，就像帕特里克所说的那样，这是一个主题框架，我的意思是，即使您可以将CSS和JavaScript放在单独的许可证中，但从技术上讲，Thesis可能大约有百分之五的Thesis背后的代码库实际上属于该主题。。我的意思是，大多数代码是PHP代码，它是一个框架，它的制作是为了使您拥有大量的后端选项，您可以轻松地指向并单击以更改站点。但这并不是很繁重的图形，也不是您要购买风格化，设计好的主题，而是要购买一个框架，该框架可以让您随意开发主题。我认为这可能就是Chris Pearson有点担心的原因，因为他不能真正获得分割许可，也无法以他想要的方式真正使他受益。

Kevin: That ruling, quote/unquote ruling, from the Software Freedom Law Center, dates back to July last year, so that’s how long this has been going on in earnest. And the question really is, is Matt Mullenweg gonna jump or is he going to let it slide, and it feels like he’s been letting it slide for at least six months now, or at least a year now. The question is what effect would it have on the ecosystem for Automattic, the owners of WordPress, to go suing a member, a prominent member, of the WordPress development community. But Patrick I tend to agree with you, the damage that’s being done of the arguing back and forth and the uncertainty seems just as bad to me. So perhaps selfishly I would really like them to go forward with the lawsuit; I can say that because I wouldn’t have to pay the lawyer’s bills.

凯文：来自软件自由法律中心的裁决(引用/取消引用)可以追溯到去年7月，因此这是认真进行了多长时间。问题确实是，马特·穆伦维格(Matt Mullenweg)会跳还是要让它滑行，感觉好像他已经让它滑行至少六个月了，或者至少现在一年了。问题是，它将对WordPress的所有者Automattic起诉WordPress开发社区的一名成员(著名成员)会对生态系统产生什么影响。但是帕特里克，我倾向于同意你的看法，来回争论所造成的损害以及不确定性对我来说同样有害。因此，也许我很自私地希望他们继续提起诉讼。我可以这么说，因为我不必付律师费。

Patrick: Right, and that’s a question I was wondering; who’s going to file for this exactly? Who pays for the lawsuit? Is it money from the WordPress Foundation I guess? Brad you’re probably well-versed on this than I am, but where’s the money gonna come from?

帕特里克：对，这是我想知道的一个问题。谁将为此提交文件？谁为诉讼付费？我猜是从WordPress基金会得到的钱吗？布拉德，您可能比我精通此事，但钱从何而来？

Brad: Yeah, I mean that’s — I can’t imagine it would come from the Foundation because a lot of that money was via sponsorships to various WordCamps and kind of if a WordCamp has extra money they would put it into the Foundation. It’s still a fairly new entity, it’s only been around — I think it was announced back at WordCamp Boston in January, so it hasn’t been around that long. Yeah, and that’s a good question; I don’t know who would pay for it.

布拉德：是的，我的意思是-我无法想象它会来自基金会，因为其中很多钱是通过对各种WordCamp的赞助，如果WordCamp有多余的钱，他们会把它投入基金会。它仍然是一个相当新的实体，它只是在附近-我认为它是在一月份在波士顿WordCamp上宣布的，所以它已经存在了很长时间。是的，这是一个很好的问题；我不知道谁会为此买单。

Patrick: Right. You have one person in the community who’s visible who disregards the license, let’s say, let’s leave any allegations; let’s just say it’s a certainty he violated the license, he’s spitting in the face of WordPress, whatever. So is that worth suing over and spending that money and spending the time on there? I mean if we just say okay you know what, he’s doing that, we’ve exposed it, people know it, the people who feel strongly don’t like him, good, we got it, he’s been browbeat into the ground. Now, is there, I guess is there some reason to still go forward with the lawsuit? Is it such a firm principle that, okay, we are offended by this, we’re disrespected, we’re gonna spend $200,000 on a lawsuit, or whatever it is, and that’s a good use of our resources and our time. Rather than just saying okay he’s done that, let’s move on, let’s continue to make good stuff. I mean I could see an argument either way, but I’m just saying there’s a lot of time and resources being spent on this by WordPress developers and by people who are instrumental in the creation and maintenance of WordPress itself, so I don’t know if this is — I don’t know if this sort of thing is the best use of resources when we’re talking about an open source, freely available piece of software. Usually these sorts of things are reserved for when people are actually making money and their money is being affected, then people spend money to defend that money. Don’t get me wrong, there’re a lot of people making money here who are involved in this argument on both sides, but I just don’t know that it’s the best use of resources to go forward with that step as much as there may be people wanting that to happen.

帕特里克：对。您在社区中有一个不可见的人，不理会许可证，比方说，让我们离开所有指控；可以肯定地说，他违反了许可证，无论面对什么，他都面对WordPress随地吐痰。那么，是否值得起诉并花那笔钱并花些时间在那儿？我的意思是，如果我们只是说好，您知道吗，他正在这样做，我们已经揭露了它，人们知道了，那些强烈不喜欢他的人，很好，我们明白了，他一直在地面上不知所措。现在，在那儿，我想还有什么理由可以继续进行诉讼？这是一个坚定的原则吗，好吧，我们对此感到不高兴，对此我们感到不敬，我们将在诉讼上花费20万美元，或者无论它是什么，这都是对我们资源和时间的很好利用。与其只是说好，他已经做到了，不如继续前进，让我们继续创造出好东西。我的意思是我可以以任何一种方式看到一个论点，但是我只是说WordPress开发人员以及在WordPress本身的创建和维护中起重要作用的人们在此上花费了很多时间和资源，所以我不知道这是什么—当我们谈论开源，免费可用的软件时，我不知道这种事情是否是对资源的最佳利用。通常，当人们实际在赚钱并且他们的钱受到影响时，人们才花钱捍卫这笔钱。别误会我的意思，很多人都在这里参与这场争论，但是我只是不知道，尽可能多地利用资源来实现这一目标可能有人希望这种情况发生。

Brad: You know even if a lawsuit doesn’t go forward, even if this is the last we hear of it from Matt Mullenweg’s side, you know a lot of damage has already been done towards Thesis. I mean I’ve seen a lot of users coming out that have been using Thesis for a while and had no idea it was in violation of the WordPress license. They had no idea until Matt Mullenweg publicly started talking about it. And now they know and a lot of them I’ve seen have been jumping ship. Now I’m sure it’s a small percentage because there’re a lot of Thesis users, but a lot of people just had no idea there was a conflict with the licenses, so now that they know they’re jumping ship. So maybe that was the intention just to get the information out there and then let people make the decision whether they want to go with Thesis or not.

布拉德：即使诉讼没有继续进行，您也知道，即使这是我们从马特·穆伦维格(Matt Mullenweg)那里听到的最后一次诉讼，您也知道对论文业已经造成了很多损害。我的意思是，我已经看到很多用户使用Thesis已有一段时间，并且不知道这违反了WordPress许可证。他们不知道，直到Matt Mullenweg公开谈论它。现在他们知道了，我见过的许多人都在跳船。现在我可以确定这是一个很小的百分比，因为有很多Thesis用户，但是很多人都不知道许可证有冲突，所以现在他们知道自己正在跳船。因此，也许这只是为了让信息在那里然后让人们做出是否要选择论文的决定。

Patrick: Yeah, and Mullenweg is definitely exerting his influence here and trumpeting every time someone leaves Thesis. And maybe that’s not a big number, but I mean he’s definitely embarked on a campaign of sorts even saying that he will buy another premium license for you if you switch from Thesis. So, you know, that’s how serious it is that we have a license in the ecosystem, or a style in the ecosystem, that is disrespectful to the license let’s say, and that’s how serious it is that his Twitter stream is full with pages and pages of him talking about it or re-tweeting other people switching, or offering to buy themes for other people. It’s just ugly I think and I don’t know what the end result is, like I said, but I don’t enjoy watching it, and I’ve been involved in some minor conflicts myself with regard to phpBB and it’s just an ugly thing, and there’s not really a whole lot of winners in that sort of situation.

帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，每次有人离开论文，Mullenweg肯定会在这里发挥自己的影响力，并大声疾呼。也许这并不是一个很大的数目，但是我的意思是他肯定已经开始了一场竞选活动，甚至说如果您从Thesis换班，他将为您购买另一个高级许可证。因此，您知道，我们在生态系统中拥有许可证或生态系统中的样式是多么严重，这不尊重许可证，比如说，他的Twitter流中充满了页面和内容，这是多么严重。他谈论这些话题或转推其他人转帖，或主动为他人购买主题的页面。我认为这很丑陋，我不知道最终结果是什么，就像我说的那样，但是我不喜欢看它，而且我自己在phpBB方面也参与了一些小冲突，这很丑陋事情，在这种情况下实际上并没有很多赢家。

Kevin: Is Google monitoring your mouse movements? There was an email that went around at SitePoint HQ last week — because the search engine optimization blogs it’s not something I usually do with my spare time, I don’t read these a lot — but an email went around going just when you thought you had some sort of grip on your search ranking it looks like Google might be monitoring the mouse movements of people who do a Google search, land at a search results page and then are poring over that list of results. A patent has been granted to Google according to seobythesea.com for doing exactly that. The idea is if you hover your mouse over a particular search result on that results page chances are you are reading it, taking it in, and as a result that can be considered a more valuable search result than the ones that you don’t even spend half a second glancing at. The theory that’s advanced in this article is that you might actually find the information you were looking for in the little snippet that’s displayed on the Google search results page, and so even though you never actually click through to that search result it’s still to be considered a high quality result that could be further prioritized in future searches for the same thing by other users. This all sounds well and good, but I got curious and went looking on the Google search results pages and digging through the code, and I can’t find any evidence that they’re actually doing this. But would it be a good idea?

凯文： Google是否监视您的鼠标移动？上周在SitePoint总部有一封电子邮件到处散布-因为搜索引擎优化博客通常不是我用业余时间做的事，所以我读的内容不多-但只是在您认为自己有空的情况下，一封电子邮件仍在散布对您的搜索排名有一定的控制力，看起来Google可能会监视进行Google搜索的人员的鼠标移动，然后进入搜索结果页面，然后浏览该结果列表。 seobythesea.com确实已为此授予Google专利。这个想法是，如果您将鼠标悬停在该结果页面上的特定搜索结果上，则可能是您正在阅读，接受该结果，因此它被认为是比您甚至没有的结果更有价值的搜索结果花半秒钟的时间看一眼。本文提出的理论是，您实际上可能会在Google搜索结果页面上显示的小片段中找到所需的信息，因此即使您从未真正点击过该搜索结果，也仍然需要考虑高质量的结果，可以在以后其他用户搜索同一事物时进一步优先处理。这一切听起来都不错，但是我很好奇，然后继续在Google搜索结果页面上浏览并仔细研究了代码，但找不到任何证据表明他们实际上在这样做。但这是一个好主意吗？

Patrick: Well, I’m on Google right now doing a search for Kevin Yank and circling my mouse over kevinyank.com repeatedly over and over and over again trying to add to your juice there. No.

帕特里克：好吧，我现在在Google上搜索Kevin Yank，并一遍又一遍又一遍地在kevinyank.com上圈出我的鼠标，试图添加到那里。没有。

Kevin: You do that. Just put your mouse there on my homepage and go away for awhile.

凯文：你这样做。只需将鼠标放在我的主页上，然后消失一会儿即可。

Patrick: Go have dinner.

帕特里克：去吃晚饭。

Brad: That’s what I see these SEO firms just doing vigorously like moving their mouse over their own websites and their client’s websites.

布拉德：那就是我所看到的，这些SEO公司正在大力开展工作，例如将鼠标移到他们自己的网站和他们客户的网站上。

Kevin: (laughs)

凯文：(笑)

Patrick: That’s going to be a job listing we’re going to see explode: Mouse Mover, SEO Corp.

帕特里克：那将是一份工作清单，我们将看到爆炸：SEO Corp.的Mouse Mover。

Brad: After I read this article I wasn’t sure actually if I used my mouse when I’m reading results.

布拉德：看完这篇文章后，我不确定在读取结果时是否使用了鼠标。

Kevin: Yeah.

凯文：是的。

Brad: So I actually went to Google and did a couple searches just to see if I could try to figure out if I was actually doing that, and I don’t think I am unless I’m subconsciously telling myself not to because I’m trying to do this test. I usually just use my scroll wheel.

布拉德：所以我实际上去了Google，做了几次搜索，只是想看看我是否可以找出自己是否确实在做，除非我下意识地告诉自己不要这样做，否则我不认为我是因为我正在尝试进行此测试。我通常只使用滚轮。

Kevin: It’s one of those things you can’t actually test it.

凯文：这是您无法实际测试的事情之一。

Brad: Yeah, you can’t really test it if you’re thinking about it, and if you’re not thinking about it you’re not testing it, so it’s a tricky one, but it’s —

布拉德：是的，如果您正在考虑它，那么您就无法真正对其进行测试；如果您没有考虑它，那么您就无需对其进行测试，因此这是一个棘手的问题，但这是-

Kevin: Yeah, yep. No, I think so too; I think I’m a scroll wheel guy now.

凯文：是的，是的。不，我也这么认为；我想我现在是个滚轮家伙。

Brad: That’s primarily what I did. You know what this reminds me of is I remember hearing about how grocery stores would kind of track people’s eyeball movement as they went up and down the aisles at the store and kind of see what they’re looking at and see if their line of sight– It kind of reminds me of that, like a line of sight thing like what are you actually looking at while you’re viewing a web page, but obviously they don’t know where our eyeballs are at but they certainly can look where our pointers are at, so, it’s weird.

布拉德：那主要是我所做的。您知道这让我想起的是，我记得听说杂货店如何在人们走过商店过道时跟踪他们的眼球运动，并看到他们在看什么，看他们的视线如何–有点使我想起，就像是视线之类的东西，例如您在浏览网页时实际看到的东西，但显然他们不知道我们的目光在哪里，但他们当然可以看到我们的视线指针指向，所以，这很奇怪。

Kevin: There was a developer who used to work at SitePoint and to watch him read a webpage was really interesting. He actually highlights every piece of text as he reads it, and I was talking to him about it once and he said it’s a habit that he got into because he worked in an environment — and SitePoint is an environment like this — where it’s very open plan and you can get interrupted at any moment by someone needing your help, and it’s good to be able to just turn away from your monitor in the middle of reading something safe in the knowledge that when you get to come back to it the piece of text that you were reading will be highlighted there on your screen. And so, yeah, just watching him read any web page he would just highlight it sort of one sentence or one paragraph at a time, read it, and you could actually watch him read; it meant he did a lot of extra clicking, but yeah, I wonder, maybe Google should be monitoring people highlighting text, that would be a really meaningful method.

凯文：曾经有一个开发人员曾在SitePoint工作，看着他阅读网页真的很有趣。他实际上在阅读时会突出显示每段文字，而我曾与他谈论过一次，他说这是他养成的习惯，因为他在这样的环境中工作-SitePoint在这样的环境中-非常开放计划，您随时可能会被需要帮助的人打扰。在阅读一些安全的资料的过程中，最好能够离开显示器，这是一件好事，因为您知道当您回到它的那一块时，您正在阅读的文本将在屏幕上突出显示。因此，是的，只要看着他阅读任何网页，他就可以一次突出显示一个句子或一个段落，然后阅读，您实际上可以看到他阅读；这意味着他做了很多额外的点击，但是，是的，我想知道，也许Google应该监视人们突出显示文本，这将是一种非常有意义的方法。

Patrick: And after that conversation you said ‘cuckoo’ and that’s why he’s no longer there.

帕特里克：在谈话之后，你说了“杜鹃”，这就是为什么他不再在那里了。

Kevin: (laughs)

凯文：(笑)

Patrick: No, but you know actually it’s funny you should mention the highlighting because there is a service called Tynt that you may have heard of, I think we have talked about it maybe before, but basically what they do is you sign up with them and hook it on to your webpage, insert some JavaScript I assume, and they will track everything that’s highlighted on your website; articles, pages, I think it’s an option where you can actually have them add a link also to the bottom of any quote so that when someone highlights it and copies it–

帕特里克：否，但您知道实际上应该提到突出显示是很有趣的，因为您可能听说过一项名为Tynt的服务，我想我们也许之前已经谈论过，但是基本上他们要做的是您注册他们并将其连接到您的网页上，插入一些我假设JavaScript，它们将跟踪您网站上突出显示的所有内容；文章，页面，我认为这是一个选择，您实际上可以让它们在任何引号的底部添加一个链接，以便当有人突出显示并复制它时–

Kevin: Ooh, I hate that.

凯文：哦，我讨厌那个。

Patrick: — and pastes it they get a link. But I think you can also turn that off and just track highlighting. So in some way that can already sort of be done if you’re interested in that sort of data and you have a developer who does that on your website.

帕特里克(Patrick)： —将其粘贴后即可获得链接。但我认为您也可以将其关闭并仅跟踪突出显示。因此，如果您对这类数据感兴趣，并且有一个开发人员在您的网站上进行操作，则可以通过某种方式完成该工作。

Kevin: I’ve always imagined sort of a social browsing experience where you could see all the other users who were reading the same page you were. And there have been attempts at this in instant messaging clients and things like that before, but imagine you can see little people’s avatar icons moving down paragraph by paragraph through the same article that you were looking at and sort of faded highlights appearing as they were highlighting things. Probably not something you’d want turned on all the time, but man —

凯文：我一直想像一种社交浏览体验，您可以看到正在阅读同一页面的所有其他用户。并且在即时消息客户端中已经进行了这种尝试，但以前有过类似的尝试，但是想象一下，您可以看到小人们的头像图标在您所查看的同一篇文章中逐段向下移动，并且在突出显示时出现了一些淡化的突出显示东西。可能不是您一直想要打开的东西，而是男人-

Patrick: Sounds like something out of Harry Potter.

帕特里克(Patrick)：听起来像哈利·波特(Harry Potter)的东西。

Kevin: (laughs) Yeah, it would bring the Web alive. I don’t know if it’s a good use of JavaScript resources, but yes, definitely a strange one. It’s just one of those things that Google got a patent for, they thought yeah it might be a good idea, let’s make sure that we’re the ones who get to do that if we decide to do it. But I don’t think they actually are at this point.

凯文：(笑)是的，它将使网络更加活跃。我不知道这是否可以很好地利用JavaScript资源，但是可以，绝对是一种奇怪的方法。这只是Google获得专利的一件事，他们认为是个好主意，请确保我们是决定这样做的人。但是我不认为他们实际上在这一点上。

Patrick: So the news media versus Google storyline continues in a way with a report at businessinsider.com by Nick Zane. He says that the New York Times wants the government to start regulating Google’s Search Business. What they mean is that they want the government to watch how Google manages its algorithm so that when they make tweaks to it they are doing so strictly to improve the quality of the search results and not to help Google’s other businesses and their rankings. The Times does say that it would be challenging or impractical to have the government be in charge of approving it every time that there is a tweak, but nonetheless they’d still like the government to be involved with Google’s algorithm changes.

帕特里克：新闻媒体与Google的故事情节在某种程度上以Nick Zane 在businessinsider.com上的报道继续进行。他说，《纽约时报》希望政府开始监管谷歌的搜索业务。他们的意思是，他们希望政府观察Google如何管理其算法，以便在对其进行调整时严格执行操作，以提高搜索结果的质量，而不是帮助Google的其他业务及其排名。时报确实说，每次有调整时，让政府负责批准它是具有挑战性或不切实际的，但尽管如此，他们仍然希望政府参与Google的算法更改。

Kevin: And I agree with Business Insider in that this is an insane notion. (Laughs) Business Insider goes on to make a bunch of points about why this is a bad idea, and I think I agree with most if not all of them. But the key one is that at least in what is supposed to be an open market like the United States the government should not be interfering with business decisions of a company like Google, especially if Google does not have a monopoly. And so before, as a first step, I feel like the government would have to decide for itself that Google had a monopoly on search before they would even be able to start looking at the algorithm that Google uses for search. Do you agree Brad?

凯文：我同意《商业内幕》的看法，这是一个疯狂的想法。 (笑)Business Insider继续就为什么这是一个坏主意提出了很多观点，我想我同意大多数(即使不是全部)观点。但是关键是至少在像美国这样的公开市场上，政府不应该干预像Google这样的公司的商业决策，尤其是在Google没有垄断的情况下。因此，在此之前，作为第一步，我觉得政府将不得不自己决定Google在搜索领域具有垄断地位，然后他们才能够开始研究 Google用于搜索的算法。你同意布拉德吗？

Brad: Yeah, I mean the last thing we need I think is the government getting involved in Google’s algorithm. There’s got to be a very small percentage of people in the world that would even understand the algorithm, and I’m certainly not one of them, so I can’t imagine there’s that many government types that would be able to even kind of comprehend how it all works, so I certainly don’t think that needs to happen. I agree, if they had 95 percent, 99 percent market share okay then they might have a point, but at this point it’s 63 percent market share, Yahoo! and Bing both creeping up eating into that, you know, if you’re worried about Google don’t use Google. I think it’s just maybe the New York Times is a little bit turned off. You know what’s funny about this article on Business Insider, if I actually click through the link to New York Times it forces me to create an account to view the article; I can’t view any of the article.

布拉德：是的，我的意思是我认为我们需要的最后一件事是政府介入Google的算法。世界上只有一小部分人甚至可以理解算法，但我当然不是其中之一，所以我无法想象有很多政府类型甚至可以理解一切如何运作，所以我当然认为这不需要发生。我同意，如果他们拥有95％，99％的市场份额还可以，那么他们可能会有道理，但在这一点上，雅虎是63％的市场份额。如果您担心Google不要使用Google，那么Bing和Bing都会逐渐加入进来。我认为可能只是《纽约时报》有点关门了。您知道Business Insider上这篇文章的有趣之处，如果我实际上单击了《纽约时报》的链接，这将迫使我创建一个帐户来查看该文章；我看不到任何文章。

So what I did, I took the title of the article put it into Google which promptly found the article for me and then I was able to click right through and it didn’t require me to register. So had Google not found the right result in the first place I wouldn’t even be able to read this article without creating an account; just a little bit of irony I think, but I thought that was kind of funny.

因此，我做的就是将文章的标题放到Google中，谷歌立即为我找到了该文章，然后我可以单击鼠标右键，不需要我进行注册。因此，如果Google首先没有找到正确的结果，我什至在没有创建帐户的情况下也无法阅读本文。我认为这只是有点讽刺，但我认为这很有趣。

Kevin: This feels like the New York Times didn’t know– This is their editorial so it’s not even attributed to a particular author, in theory this is the voice of the New York Times expressing an opinion, which is weird enough as it is, but it feels like they had a spot to fill for an editorial and they didn’t know what to talk about so they cooked up this half-baked thing. It really isn’t very definitive about anything. To hear it discussed it would sound like the New York Times was saying “For the good of the Internet the government must step in!” But reading the article it’s more like “I think it might be a good idea for the government to have a look at the Google search algorithm.” And it’s so vague and half-hearted you can tell that they’re not even that convinced by their argument. It’s very strange. But the contention that Google would be doing the wrong thing by making a change to their algorithm that would benefit only Google, this is another one of the core points that’s made by Business Insider; Google is a money-making business, that’s the business they’re in. If they can change their search algorithm in a way that makes them more money that’s what Google’s gonna do because they’re out there to make a profit. It just seems like lucky for its users the best way Google has found to make more money is to deliver more relevant search results, at least for now, sponsored results aside and all that.

凯文：感觉就像《纽约时报》不知道–这是他们的社论，所以它甚至都没有归因于特定的作者，从理论上讲，这是《纽约时报》发表意见的声音，这很奇怪，但感觉好像他们有充任社论的地方，而且他们不知道该说些什么，所以他们把这半熟的东西煮熟了。对于任何事情，它确实不是很确定。听到它的讨论，听起来就像《纽约时报》在说：“为了互联网的利益，政府必须介入！” 但是阅读这篇文章更像是“我认为政府看看Google搜索算法可能是个好主意。” 如此模糊和三心二意，你可以说他们甚至没有被他们的论点说服。真奇怪但是，有人争辩说，谷歌会做出改变，使算法只会使谷歌受益，这将做错事情，这是Business Insider提出的另一个核心观点。 Google是一家赚钱的公司，这就是他们所从事的业务。如果他们可以通过改变搜索算法的方式来赚钱，那这就是Google要做的，因为他们在那儿赚钱。对于用户来说，幸运的是，谷歌发现能够赚到更多钱的最好方法就是提供更相关的搜索结果，至少到目前为止，不包括赞助商的搜索结果。

Patrick: What they should do is put in big red text anything that’s related to the search term that you just put in that they run, so when you search for news at the top there should be a huge red box that takes up 400 pixels by 400 pixels and says Google news, click here now, and then farther down is the rest. But actually right now Google news is fourth for a search for news on Google, so.

帕特里克(Patrick)：他们应该做的是在红色大文本中插入与您所输入的搜索字词相关的所有内容，因此，当您在顶部搜索新闻时，应该有一个巨大的红色框，该框占据400像素， 400像素并说Google新闻，请立即单击此处，然后再向下移动。但实际上，目前Google新闻在Google新闻搜索中排名第四。

Well, speaking of Google, the popular social bookmarking site Reddit put out their Google Analytics numbers on their blog on July 15th. According to the screenshot that they posted, from June 14th to July 14th they had 429 million page views with 36.6 million visits. The reason they did this was because of the inaccuracy, in their opinion, of the numbers provided by some of the stat companies that advertisers sometimes trust when buying ads such as compete.com, Quantcast, Alexa, and Nielsen, to illustrate the disparity between their actual Google Analytics numbers and these numbers on Compete, Quantcast, etcetera. I just gave you the numbers that are in analytics, like I said, 429 million page views, 36 million visits. Well, Compete shows them as getting around 927,000 unique visitors a month; that’s less than a million when analytic shows 36.6 million. Quantcast shows, well they show, let’s see, 13 to 10 million visits a month, that’s visits, so unique visitors most likely. Alexa just shows some weird chart-y thing about daily page views percentage that nobody really understands. And Nielsen finally shows their online market size estimate to be 652,000. This is something that I struggle with myself not being big enough to attract the attention of most of these. I will say with Quantcast you can hook up your site directly to it and be quantified as they call it, so Reddit might want to look into that, I do it myself. But beyond that it seems like a guessing game with what these other sites use to count your tracking numbers.

好吧，谈到Google，受欢迎的社交书签网站Reddit于7月15日在其博客上发布了Google Analytics(分析)编号。 According to the screenshot that they posted, from June 14th to July 14th they had 429 million page views with 36.6 million visits. The reason they did this was because of the inaccuracy, in their opinion, of the numbers provided by some of the stat companies that advertisers sometimes trust when buying ads such as compete.com, Quantcast, Alexa, and Nielsen, to illustrate the disparity between their actual Google Analytics numbers and these numbers on Compete, Quantcast, etcetera. I just gave you the numbers that are in analytics, like I said, 429 million page views, 36 million visits. Well, Compete shows them as getting around 927,000 unique visitors a month; that's less than a million when analytic shows 36.6 million. Quantcast shows, well they show, let's see, 13 to 10 million visits a month, that's visits, so unique visitors most likely. Alexa just shows some weird chart-y thing about daily page views percentage that nobody really understands. And Nielsen finally shows their online market size estimate to be 652,000. This is something that I struggle with myself not being big enough to attract the attention of most of these. I will say with Quantcast you can hook up your site directly to it and be quantified as they call it, so Reddit might want to look into that, I do it myself. But beyond that it seems like a guessing game with what these other sites use to count your tracking numbers.

Kevin: For a while there I was convinced that any one of these services would be fine as long as you just take it as a relative measure against itself. So the fact that you’re number 100 on Alexa doesn’t say anything by itself, but the fact that you’re 100 and your competitor is 90 on Alexa says pretty definitively that they’re ahead of you. That’s what I thought. But over the years my confidence in that has eroded as we’ve heard stories of this week Alexa changed its– I’m not saying it was this week, but a couple of years ago I feel like I heard a story where Alexa changed its algorithm to favor sites with technical content a little more. And that very day you could see Alexa’s graph, the Alexa ranking of sitepoint.com jump, whereas some of its competitors dropped that very same day.

Kevin: For a while there I was convinced that any one of these services would be fine as long as you just take it as a relative measure against itself. So the fact that you're number 100 on Alexa doesn't say anything by itself, but the fact that you're 100 and your competitor is 90 on Alexa says pretty definitively that they're ahead of you. 我也这么想。 But over the years my confidence in that has eroded as we've heard stories of this week Alexa changed its– I'm not saying it was this week, but a couple of years ago I feel like I heard a story where Alexa changed its algorithm to favor sites with technical content a little more. And that very day you could see Alexa's graph, the Alexa ranking of sitepoint.com jump, whereas some of its competitors dropped that very same day.

Patrick: But it was a great day!

Kevin: It was a good day for us, we were happy to be on that side of the algorithm change.

Patrick: Drinks all around.

Kevin: But that day I kind of went, oh okay, they’re all just making it up, and it’s a shame.

Kevin: But that day I kind of went, oh okay, they're all just making it up, and it's a shame.

Patrick: And it’s really based on the toolbar installations, right?

Patrick: And it's really based on the toolbar installations, right?

Kevin: Yes. And it’s a shame that advertisers, the data that is available to advertisers, it seems like the more publicly available the data the less reliable it is. According to Reddit, the best numbers they’ve been able to find are through Google analytics which is something that only they have access to.

凯文：是的。 And it's a shame that advertisers, the data that is available to advertisers, it seems like the more publicly available the data the less reliable it is. According to Reddit, the best numbers they've been able to find are through Google analytics which is something that only they have access to.

Patrick: You brought up SitePoint which is a question I was gonna ask without saying too much, I know this isn’t even your area, you’re not really in advertising, but is this something that SitePoint battles with or struggles with, do you know, the rankings in these sites and working to get them to be as accurate as possible?

Patrick: You brought up SitePoint which is a question I was gonna ask without saying too much, I know this isn't even your area, you're not really in advertising, but is this something that SitePoint battles with or struggles with, do you know, the rankings in these sites and working to get them to be as accurate as possible?

Kevin: It’s something that when one of these sites isn’t telling a story that agrees with our internal analytics — very much like Reddit, Google Analytics is the final arbiter for us. And our internal traffic numbers are higher than Google Analytics, but by a consistent margin that we put down to browsers with JavaScript disabled that won’t show up in Google Analytics, search engine spiders, RSS feed readers, all of these things that create requests that are services but that Google Analytics doesn’t see. But as long as that margin is fairly consistent, and it tends to be, Google Analytics is what we use, and these other things, the Competes, the Quantcasts, the Alexas, whenever they spit out a favorable number we’ll be sure to include that number in any press package that we’re putting out there, but when we get down to discussing with a potential advertiser, the numbers that we’re talking about are all Google Analytics pre-sale, and post-sale once we’ve signed an agreement to serve up an ad, the numbers that we are following are not, oh, how many page views has Google Analytics told us we’ve gotten this month, it’s all about ad impressions that are measured through our ad delivery software. And that’s something the advertiser can log into and see a report of. And so as the process continues I feel like the numbers that are involved are more and more sensible and more and more true to life. But, you know, it is a shame that a potential advertiser might stumble across SitePoint, see that we have ad space that might appeal to them, and the first thing they might do is go to compete.com, check our Compete ranking against some of our competitors; although the numbers there seem to tell a story, just how meaningful is that story? Looking at Reddit’s numbers it doesn’t seem that meaningful at all.

Kevin: It's something that when one of these sites isn't telling a story that agrees with our internal analytics — very much like Reddit, Google Analytics is the final arbiter for us. And our internal traffic numbers are higher than Google Analytics, but by a consistent margin that we put down to browsers with JavaScript disabled that won't show up in Google Analytics, search engine spiders, RSS feed readers, all of these things that create requests that are services but that Google Analytics doesn't see. But as long as that margin is fairly consistent, and it tends to be, Google Analytics is what we use, and these other things, the Competes, the Quantcasts, the Alexas, whenever they spit out a favorable number we'll be sure to include that number in any press package that we're putting out there, but when we get down to discussing with a potential advertiser, the numbers that we're talking about are all Google Analytics pre-sale, and post-sale once we've signed an agreement to serve up an ad, the numbers that we are following are not, oh, how many page views has Google Analytics told us we've gotten this month, it's all about ad impressions that are measured through our ad delivery software. And that's something the advertiser can log into and see a report of. And so as the process continues I feel like the numbers that are involved are more and more sensible and more and more true to life. But, you know, it is a shame that a potential advertiser might stumble across SitePoint, see that we have ad space that might appeal to them, and the first thing they might do is go to compete.com, check our Compete ranking against some of our competitors; although the numbers there seem to tell a story, just how meaningful is that story? Looking at Reddit's numbers it doesn't seem that meaningful at all.

Patrick: But other thing I noticed was comScore isn’t included in this, and they’re another one, like Jason Calacanis, for example, just railing against them and how they handle their business to verify those numbers. I feel like Quantcast tried to do this, tried to be the one agency that would make it easy for you to verify your numbers because you can sign up with them, you can give them code, you can check my sites and they’re all quantified. I guess is there just no money in this sort of thing for someone to come out and say, okay, we’re going to be the most accurate one, we’re going to work with publishers to get them to sign on to our system and become the definitive source. Because it seems like there might be some room here for someone to come in and be that service; obviously it will take some server power, but beyond that this isn’t the first complaint I’ve heard about these sites. I’ve heard plenty of complaints about these types of services before, but I don’t know, I guess it’s just not an attractive enough business for someone to actually come into and go at it 100 percent right.

Patrick: But other thing I noticed was comScore isn't included in this, and they're another one, like Jason Calacanis, for example, just railing against them and how they handle their business to verify those numbers. I feel like Quantcast tried to do this, tried to be the one agency that would make it easy for you to verify your numbers because you can sign up with them, you can give them code, you can check my sites and they're all quantified. I guess is there just no money in this sort of thing for someone to come out and say, okay, we're going to be the most accurate one, we're going to work with publishers to get them to sign on to our system and become the definitive source. Because it seems like there might be some room here for someone to come in and be that service; obviously it will take some server power, but beyond that this isn't the first complaint I've heard about these sites. I've heard plenty of complaints about these types of services before, but I don't know, I guess it's just not an attractive enough business for someone to actually come into and go at it 100 percent right.

Kevin: It’s surprising that Google, you know, if we’re all saying that Google has a really accurate and useful analytics package, it is surprising that Google hasn’t opened up the opportunity to publish some portion of your analytics publicly. If I could tick a box in my Google Analytics package that said release my traffic graph but not with any actual numbers associated with it, release just the relative graph so people could see that, I might choose to do that. What we end up doing and what I guess a lot of people end up doing is once they’re in negotiations with an advertiser, if the advertiser is saying “well Compete is saying this and you’re telling me that,” what you have to end up doing is getting their email address and granting them access to your Google analytics so that they can take a look for themselves and be satisfied. And it’s a terrible situation because that’s not a pleasant thing to have to do.

Kevin: It's surprising that Google, you know, if we're all saying that Google has a really accurate and useful analytics package, it is surprising that Google hasn't opened up the opportunity to publish some portion of your analytics publicly. If I could tick a box in my Google Analytics package that said release my traffic graph but not with any actual numbers associated with it, release just the relative graph so people could see that, I might choose to do that. What we end up doing and what I guess a lot of people end up doing is once they're in negotiations with an advertiser, if the advertiser is saying “well Compete is saying this and you're telling me that,” what you have to end up doing is getting their email address and granting them access to your Google analytics so that they can take a look for themselves and be satisfied. And it's a terrible situation because that's not a pleasant thing to have to do.

Patrick: That’s a great point.

帕特里克：这很重要。

Kevin: Yeah, I think you’re right. It’s a business opportunity, Patrick, it’s a business opportunity.

Kevin: Yeah, I think you're right. It's a business opportunity, Patrick, it's a business opportunity.

Brad: I’m just glad I don’t have any sites that get real traffic (laughter).

Brad: I'm just glad I don't have any sites that get real traffic (laughter).

Patrick: This is not a concern for you.

Brad: Yeah, but on the other hand I do have clients that get a lot of traffic, and I can tell you that pretty much every client we have that is getting 5,000 or more hits a day, they typically run multiple analytics package for this very reason just to kind of compare two or three different tracking packages and try to get a good average that they can use in their marketing efforts to bring in advertisers. So it’s certainly a challenge, and you’re right, it would be nice to see somebody kind of come out and say this is — these are the definitive numbers and this is how we’re getting them. But hopefully that will happen.

Brad: Yeah, but on the other hand I do have clients that get a lot of traffic, and I can tell you that pretty much every client we have that is getting 5,000 or more hits a day, they typically run multiple analytics package for this very reason just to kind of compare two or three different tracking packages and try to get a good average that they can use in their marketing efforts to bring in advertisers. So it's certainly a challenge, and you're right, it would be nice to see somebody kind of come out and say this is — these are the definitive numbers and this is how we're getting them. But hopefully that will happen.

Patrick: You know it’s possible that Google could go in this direction because on the last episode of the podcast, on episode 69, we mentioned the story of the top 1,000 websites shared by DoubleClick Ad Planner by Google, and essentially it’s Alexa top 1,000 but just done by Google. So, you know, maybe they’ll make some headway into that market, I think they really could.

Patrick: You know it's possible that Google could go in this direction because on the last episode of the podcast, on episode 69, we mentioned the story of the top 1,000 websites shared by DoubleClick Ad Planner by Google, and essentially it's Alexa top 1,000 but just done by Google. So, you know, maybe they'll make some headway into that market, I think they really could.

Kevin: I read a related story to this late in June, and I’ve put it on the list for today because I think it’s really interesting. This is from Mike Industries, and this is a blog that has been speaking out against page views as a metric of traffic. And he’s spoken before about the fact that everyone looks at page views, page views, page views, especially the advertising industry wants to know how many page views you have, and as a result users suffer. And he has written one or two scathing essays on this subject before, but now he is applauding msnbc.com for their recent article page design because essentially it is all Ajax; if you go and view a story at msnbc.com you get to this page and the entire story is on that one page. Not only that, but related content when you click on it in that page it loads in place inside that existing page. Effectively you can spend your whole afternoon reading and viewing content at msnbc.com and only ever make a single page view. And he’s saying that this is a landmark change, it represents the fact that MSNBC has seen fit to throw out page views as a meaningful metric of their traffic, and he wants to see more people do this sort of thing. I’m not sure it’s that big a deal because as he points out the ads are also loaded dynamically as you visit the page, so as you’re scrolling down additional ads are appearing, as you access other content related ads are pulled in and displayed alongside them. The fact that it’s all done with Ajax and the address in your browser bar never changes isn’t that big a difference. You would have to get your advertisers on side by saying yes we have much fewer page views than our competition but look at our ad impression numbers.

Kevin: I read a related story to this late in June, and I've put it on the list for today because I think it's really interesting. This is from Mike Industries, and this is a blog that has been speaking out against page views as a metric of traffic. And he's spoken before about the fact that everyone looks at page views, page views, page views, especially the advertising industry wants to know how many page views you have, and as a result users suffer. And he has written one or two scathing essays on this subject before, but now he is applauding msnbc.com for their recent article page design because essentially it is all Ajax; if you go and view a story at msnbc.com you get to this page and the entire story is on that one page. Not only that, but related content when you click on it in that page it loads in place inside that existing page. Effectively you can spend your whole afternoon reading and viewing content at msnbc.com and only ever make a single page view. And he's saying that this is a landmark change, it represents the fact that MSNBC has seen fit to throw out page views as a meaningful metric of their traffic, and he wants to see more people do this sort of thing. I'm not sure it's that big a deal because as he points out the ads are also loaded dynamically as you visit the page, so as you're scrolling down additional ads are appearing, as you access other content related ads are pulled in and displayed alongside them. The fact that it's all done with Ajax and the address in your browser bar never changes isn't that big a difference. You would have to get your advertisers on side by saying yes we have much fewer page views than our competition but look at our ad impression numbers.

Brad: I’d love it. I mean I think it’s an interesting design. You certainly can’t say they don’t make good use of white space, you know, it’s very clean. I think it’s great. There’s nothing more frustrating for me than you see maybe a top ten list on Digg or Reddit or whatever, and it looks interesting and you open it up and it’s every item on the top ten list is a separate page you have to load. I mean it’s so annoying, it slows down reading it; anytime I see that I immediately close the list, I’m not going to click through ten different pages just to see this top ten list. And you know it’s exactly why they do that just to pump up the page view counts when it’s really unnecessary, so it’s nice to see a huge player kind of — whether they’re taking a stand or not it’s nice to see them go a different direction. I really love the image galleries. I’m just looking at this image gallery of the oil spill and there’re 63 images and it’s neat, you hover over the little icon, it shows you a little thumbnail, you click on it, it scrolls to the image, it’s very fluid, I mean I think it’s a nice design.

Brad: I'd love it. I mean I think it's an interesting design. You certainly can't say they don't make good use of white space, you know, it's very clean. I think it's great. There's nothing more frustrating for me than you see maybe a top ten list on Digg or Reddit or whatever, and it looks interesting and you open it up and it's every item on the top ten list is a separate page you have to load. I mean it's so annoying, it slows down reading it; anytime I see that I immediately close the list, I'm not going to click through ten different pages just to see this top ten list. And you know it's exactly why they do that just to pump up the page view counts when it's really unnecessary, so it's nice to see a huge player kind of — whether they're taking a stand or not it's nice to see them go a different direction. I really love the image galleries. I'm just looking at this image gallery of the oil spill and there're 63 images and it's neat, you hover over the little icon, it shows you a little thumbnail, you click on it, it scrolls to the image, it's very fluid, I mean I think it's a nice design.

Kevin: I don’t think it’s that controversial. I do think it’s more work to implement something like this, but even Google Analytics would let you measure interactions with a page like this as page views. You could say that opening the image gallery, count that as another page view; you can ask Google Analytics to do that for you and they will. And so you can even generate page view graphs that look just like you would’ve had before using a design like this. Where you’re going to suffer is in those Alexa’s, those Compete graphs, those Quantcasts, those ones that we were just talking about. And I guess MSNBC decides that they’re a big enough name that if someone is interested in advertising with them the fact that they have a low Alexa score is not going to impact them that negatively, especially if they can go yeah well whatever our Alexa graph is we can guarantee you this many impressions in the next month. And that’s generally how it goes.

Kevin: I don't think it's that controversial. I do think it's more work to implement something like this, but even Google Analytics would let you measure interactions with a page like this as page views. You could say that opening the image gallery, count that as another page view; you can ask Google Analytics to do that for you and they will. And so you can even generate page view graphs that look just like you would've had before using a design like this. Where you're going to suffer is in those Alexa's, those Compete graphs, those Quantcasts, those ones that we were just talking about. And I guess MSNBC decides that they're a big enough name that if someone is interested in advertising with them the fact that they have a low Alexa score is not going to impact them that negatively, especially if they can go yeah well whatever our Alexa graph is we can guarantee you this many impressions in the next month. And that's generally how it goes.

Patrick: I agree with everything you’ve said, Kevin, I don’t really see this as a huge deal, I think it’s cool, it’s a nice looking site, and the user experience is nice I’m sure, but right now it works like my blog essentially; you’re on the page, you click to an article, guess what, it’s all there, there’s no pages, any content is embedded. So I don’t have any pages or any of that. We all know sites that go to the extreme like Brad talked about, top ten lists, or I’ve experienced like top thirty or fifty lists where each page is one item, and sometimes I might stick around, sometimes I’ll leave. I don’t know, I don’t think it’s that big a deal; I think there are plenty of sites that do this responsibly, and also what’s good for MSNBC might not be what’s good for the small publisher or the smaller publishers as well. MSNBC might be able to more reasonably afford to do something like this than a smaller publisher would where maybe cutting their page views, even if they’re already being responsible with pagination, and they’re already handling it in a tasteful manner. If they cut their page views by 33 percent how does that affect them selling ads and being able to provide for their staffers and their writers and to have a feasible operation? So as much as down with page views is I don’t really care that much about page views; that’s fine, I’d be happy with that metric going away. It’s something we have to live with and smaller publishers are less equipped to deal with a drop in page views. So I can see it from both sides, and if MSNBC does well and they change the perception that advertisers have then great and I think others will follow. But right now you have to look to those leaders to do those sorts of things.

Patrick: I agree with everything you've said, Kevin, I don't really see this as a huge deal, I think it's cool, it's a nice looking site, and the user experience is nice I'm sure, but right now it works like my blog essentially; you're on the page, you click to an article, guess what, it's all there, there's no pages, any content is embedded. So I don't have any pages or any of that. We all know sites that go to the extreme like Brad talked about, top ten lists, or I've experienced like top thirty or fifty lists where each page is one item, and sometimes I might stick around, sometimes I'll leave. I don't know, I don't think it's that big a deal; I think there are plenty of sites that do this responsibly, and also what's good for MSNBC might not be what's good for the small publisher or the smaller publishers as well. MSNBC might be able to more reasonably afford to do something like this than a smaller publisher would where maybe cutting their page views, even if they're already being responsible with pagination, and they're already handling it in a tasteful manner. If they cut their page views by 33 percent how does that affect them selling ads and being able to provide for their staffers and their writers and to have a feasible operation? So as much as down with page views is I don't really care that much about page views; that's fine, I'd be happy with that metric going away. It's something we have to live with and smaller publishers are less equipped to deal with a drop in page views. So I can see it from both sides, and if MSNBC does well and they change the perception that advertisers have then great and I think others will follow. But right now you have to look to those leaders to do those sorts of things.

Kevin: Let’s wrap up this show with our host spotlights guys. Brad, what have you got for us?

Kevin: Let's wrap up this show with our host spotlights guys. Brad, what have you got for us?

Brad: My spotlight is definitely a top contender for the strangest site on the Internet this year, and it is called therevolvinginternet.com. It’s a very strange site because as soon as it loads, and maybe we can bring this up to hear the audio that plays, as soon as it loads a song starts playing and the page actually starts rotating just like you would expect revolving. And it lands on Google and you can actually search, it’s fully functional, you can search Google, you can click through, and the entire time you’re on this website the Internet is revolving so it’s kind of a fun, weird little site, but for some reason I got a good laugh out of it.

Brad: My spotlight is definitely a top contender for the strangest site on the Internet this year, and it is called therevolvinginternet.com . It's a very strange site because as soon as it loads, and maybe we can bring this up to hear the audio that plays, as soon as it loads a song starts playing and the page actually starts rotating just like you would expect revolving. And it lands on Google and you can actually search, it's fully functional, you can search Google, you can click through, and the entire time you're on this website the Internet is revolving so it's kind of a fun, weird little site, but for some reason I got a good laugh out of it.

Kevin: I’ve got a fun one too, it’s called humans.txt, and this is a little practical joke by a friend of the show and jQuery: Novice to Ninja co-author Earle Castledine, who’s also known as Mr. Speaker. He has decided that it is time for these CAPTCHAs that check that you’re human to come to an end. Obviously we are moving from the Web 2.0 world into the Web 3.0 world where websites are no longer designed for human beings to consume them, they’re designed for marauding software agents to read them and build interesting information and plots against humanity. And so he’s decided that what we need is not a test to verify that you’re human, but a test to verify that you’re a computer, and he has built exactly that. If you go to his humans.txt page which is linked in the show notes, it gives you a fairly easy looking math problem to solve, 1 + 1, and if I type in 2 and then click Start, it starts a counter. I now have 5,000 milliseconds in order to answer 150 further math problems. The first one being what is the bitwise and of 73 and 12 (laughs), and I’ve just ran out of time. It has decided that I am ‘one of them’, one of the filthy bandwidth-wasting humans and it is going to kick me off the site. If you want to see what the machines see there’s an ‘act like a machine’ checkbox that you can check and your browser will automatically solve all the math problems for you, and then it will say ‘one of us’. So if you’re building your next site for computers be sure to include humans.txt to keep those nasty humans away.

Kevin: I've got a fun one too, it's called humans.txt , and this is a little practical joke by a friend of the show and jQuery: Novice to Ninja co-author Earle Castledine, who's also known as Mr. Speaker. He has decided that it is time for these CAPTCHAs that check that you're human to come to an end. Obviously we are moving from the Web 2.0 world into the Web 3.0 world where websites are no longer designed for human beings to consume them, they're designed for marauding software agents to read them and build interesting information and plots against humanity. And so he's decided that what we need is not a test to verify that you're human, but a test to verify that you're a computer, and he has built exactly that. If you go to his humans.txt page which is linked in the show notes, it gives you a fairly easy looking math problem to solve, 1 + 1, and if I type in 2 and then click Start, it starts a counter. I now have 5,000 milliseconds in order to answer 150 further math problems. The first one being what is the bitwise and of 73 and 12 (laughs), and I've just ran out of time. It has decided that I am 'one of them', one of the filthy bandwidth-wasting humans and it is going to kick me off the site. If you want to see what the machines see there's an 'act like a machine' checkbox that you can check and your browser will automatically solve all the math problems for you, and then it will say 'one of us'. So if you're building your next site for computers be sure to include humans.txt to keep those nasty humans away.

Patrick, what have you got?

Patrick: My spotlight is a Flash game. It’s called Crush The Castle 2, it’s on armorgames.com, it was programmed by Joey Betts with art by Chris Condon of Con Artist Games, and it’s a sequel to Crush The Castle, it was a very popular, still is, on armorgames.com, a very popular game where you try to, of course, crush castles with stones, boulders, and different objects. The second game has more castles, more objects, and it’s just a really fun game; a good way to take a break, let’s say, from programming or something along those lines. So, yeah, check it out if you enjoy Flash-based games you’re definitely — it’s a couple of hours I would say to beat it from start to finish, but it’s a lot of fun.

Patrick: My spotlight is a Flash game. It's called Crush The Castle 2 , it's on armorgames.com, it was programmed by Joey Betts with art by Chris Condon of Con Artist Games, and it's a sequel to Crush The Castle, it was a very popular, still is, on armorgames.com, a very popular game where you try to, of course, crush castles with stones, boulders, and different objects. The second game has more castles, more objects, and it's just a really fun game; a good way to take a break, let's say, from programming or something along those lines. So, yeah, check it out if you enjoy Flash-based games you're definitely — it's a couple of hours I would say to beat it from start to finish, but it's a lot of fun.

Kevin: I haven’t seen this game. Is this a top down view or is it a side-on view of the castles?

Kevin: I haven't seen this game. Is this a top down view or is it a side-on view of the castles?

Patrick: It is, it’s side-on, and you basically have a catapult on one side and a castle on the other, and you start with a crude object like a piece of wood and you move all the way up to something that creates a vortex that sucks everything in; that’s the last thing you get after you beat all castles because that demolishes everything in sight. And it’s just a lot of fun, a lot of fun options in it, and you can even create your own castles and play other people’s castles online in your browser. So you can definitely get a lot of replay value out of it as well.

Patrick: It is, it's side-on, and you basically have a catapult on one side and a castle on the other, and you start with a crude object like a piece of wood and you move all the way up to something that creates a vortex that sucks everything in; that's the last thing you get after you beat all castles because that demolishes everything in sight. And it's just a lot of fun, a lot of fun options in it, and you can even create your own castles and play other people's castles online in your browser. So you can definitely get a lot of replay value out of it as well.

Kevin: That’s great. I’m still waiting for someone to make Rampart, does anyone remember Rampart?

Kevin: That's great. I'm still waiting for someone to make Rampart, does anyone remember Rampart?

Brad: I remember Rampart, that’s been awhile.

Brad: I remember Rampart, that's been awhile.

Kevin: I love that game. I love that game, where you and your friend would each design a castle and then you’d have to bomb the crap out of each other basically.

Kevin: I love that game. I love that game, where you and your friend would each design a castle and then you'd have to bomb the crap out of each other basically.

Brad: It was real; it wasn’t a video game, it was a board game, right?

Brad: It was real; it wasn't a video game, it was a board game, right?

Kevin: It was a board game!

Brad: You’re like flinging boulders at each other across the room.

Brad: You're like flinging boulders at each other across the room.

Patrick: See, I didn’t even know what that was until I Googled it and I got Rampart the arcade game by Atari.

Patrick: See, I didn't even know what that was until I Googled it and I got Rampart the arcade game by Atari.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I remember. We’re gonna have to play the real thing, Brad.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that's what I remember. We're gonna have to play the real thing, Brad.

Patrick: If we ever get together, the four of us, we’re breaking out Rampart. (laughter) And streaming it live.

Patrick: If we ever get together, the four of us, we're breaking out Rampart. (laughter) And streaming it live.

Kevin: Excellent. I think that’s the end of the show guys. Who are you and where are you?

Kevin: Excellent. I think that's the end of the show guys. Who are you and where are you?

Brad: I’m Brad Williams from Webdev Studios, my blog is strangework.com, and I’m Twitter @williamsba.

Brad: I'm Brad Williams from Webdev Studios, my blog is strangework.com , and I'm Twitter @williamsba .

Kevin: That blog isn’t powered by Thesis, is it?

Kevin: That blog isn't powered by Thesis, is it?

Brad: No, I can promise you that.

Patrick: And I am Patrick O’Keefe of the iFroggy Network. I blog at managingcommunities.com; find me on Twitter @iFroggy.

Patrick: And I am Patrick O'Keefe of the iFroggy Network. I blog at managingcommunities.com ; find me on Twitter @iFroggy .

Kevin: Your Alexa ranking is looking especially good this week, Patrick.

And I am @sentience on Twitter, and you can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom. Visit the SitePoint Podcast at https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast, leave your comment on this show, you know, let us know what you do for traffic numbers. And be sure to subscribe to receive every show automatically.

And I am @sentience on Twitter, and you can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom . Visit the SitePoint Podcast at https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast , leave your comment on this show, you know, let us know what you do for traffic numbers. And be sure to subscribe to receive every show automatically.

This episode of the SitePoint Podcast is produced by Carl Longnecker, and I’m Kevin Yank. Thanks for listening. Bye, bye.

This episode of the SitePoint Podcast is produced by Carl Longnecker, and I'm Kevin Yank. 谢谢收听。 Bye, bye.

Theme music by Mike Mella.

Theme music by Mike Mella .

Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.

Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we're doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/sitepoint-podcast-71-the-revolving-internet/