从入门到专家需要多久_行业入门-从专家的口中

从入门到专家需要多久

This morning I hosted another in our series of Talk with the Experts live chat sessions, but this one was a bit different. After months – maybe years – of battling with substandard chat software, I finally nagged for so long that I was heard. The result? Our brand new, shiny, custom Talk with the Experts interface. I’ll admit to being a little nervous in the minutes leading up to the session – so nervous that I shouted at my kids, spilled my coffee, snapped at my boyfriend, redirected the chat to the wrong chatroom, forgot the syntax to fix the redirection, and bit one nail right down to the quick. All that being achieved, things went surprisingly well. Perfectly in fact.

今天早上，我在“与专家交谈”系列实时聊天会话中又主持了一次，但这次有所不同。经过数月(也许是数年)的与次等聊天软件的斗争，我终于被困了很长时间，以至于被听到。结果？我们全新，闪亮，自定义的“专家对话”界面。我会在会议开始前的几分钟内感到有点紧张-如此紧张以至于我对孩子大喊，洒了咖啡、,了我的男朋友，将聊天重定向到错误的聊天室，忘记了修复问题的语法重定向，然后Swift咬一口钉子。所有已实现的事情进展顺利。完全是事实。

The session was a huge success. Our experts this time were SitePoint lead dev Jude Aakjaer, a self-taught developer who worked his way through agencies to eventually find his way to us, and Ben Axnick, who is one of the success stories of our graduate intern program.

会议取得了巨大的成功。这次我们的专家是SitePoint首席开发人员Jude Aakjaer(他是自学成才的开发人员，他通过代理机构努力工作，最终找到通往我们的路)，以及Ben Axnick，他是我们研究生实习计划的成功案例之一。

If you missed the session but would like to see what went down, you’ll find the transcript below. If you missed it because you didn’t know about it, then you can sign up here for email reminders of future sessions. And you can find a list of upcoming sessions and dates here.

如果您错过了会议，但想了解失败的原因，可以在下面找到成绩单。如果您因为不了解而错过了它，那么可以在此处注册以获取有关未来会议的电子邮件提醒。您可以在此处找到即将举行的会议和日期的列表。

[20:58] <HAWK> Welcome everyone – this is our first session using this new interface

[20:58] <HAWK>欢迎大家-这是我们使用此新界面的第一次会议

[20:58] <HAWK> We’d love your feedback as we go along

[20:58] <HAWK>我们很乐意为您提供反馈意见

[20:59] <HAWK> So this session is intended to be an open discussion about getting started in the web industry.

[20:59] <HAWK>因此，本次会议旨在成为有关Web行业入门的公开讨论。

[20:59] <Frenchysdf> Nice to see it is mobile friendly

[20:59] <Frenchysdf>很高兴看到它对移动设备友好

[20:59] <HAWK> I’ll be moderating the session, and our experts are our lead dev Jude Aakjaer

[20:59] <HAWK>我将主持会议，我们的专家是我们的首席开发人员Jude Aakjaer

[20:59] <HAWK> And Ben Axnick, who came to SitePoint through our graduate intern program

[20:59] <HAWK>和本·阿克斯尼克，他们是通过我们的研究生实习计划来到SitePoint的

[20:59] <Bentheax> Hello all!

[20:59] <Bentheax>大家好！

[21:00] <santouras> Hi guys – Jude here

[21:00] <santouras>大家好–裘德在这里

[21:00] <HAWK> Ah yes, Frenchysdf – we have MalCurtis to thank for that :)

[21:00] <HAWK>是的，Frenchysdf –我们要感谢MalCurtis ：)

[21:00] <Dude> awesome responsive interface

[21:00] <Dude>出色的响应界面

[21:00] <HAWK> So for anyone that doesn’t know – you can @ tag people to get their attention

[21:00] <HAWK>因此，对于任何不认识的人–您可以@标记人物以引起他们的关注

[21:00] <tubiz> Hi everyone

[21:00] <tubiz>大家好

[21:00] <Jerry> Hello

[21:00] <杰里>你好

[21:01] <KickStarter> Hello all!!!

[21:01] <KickStarter>大家好！

[21:01] <HAWK> So first up I think it would be good if Jude & Ben could give us a quick intro and a run down as to how THEY got into the industry

[21:01] <HAWK>因此，首先，我认为Jude＆Ben可以快速介绍一下他们如何进入这个行业是个好习惯

[21:01] <Jerry> The new interface looks good so far!

[21:01] <Jerry>到目前为止，新界面看起来不错！

[21:01] <HAWK> Then we’ll throw it open to discussion

[21:01] <HAWK>然后我们将其公开讨论

[21:01] <HAWK> Thanks Jerry

[21:01] <HAWK>谢谢杰里

[21:01] <HAWK> So do you want to kick that off santouras?

[21:01] <HAWK>那么，您想从santouras出发吗？

[21:01] <santouras> sure thing HAWK

[21:01] <santouras>确定的东西好了

[21:02] <santouras> so, I’ve been in the industry now since 2001, and came through basically being self taught

[ 21:02 ] <santouras>因此，自2001年以来我一直从事该行业，并且基本上是自学成才

[21:02] <HAWK> Straight from school, or were you doing something else first?

[21:02] <HAWK>直接从学校毕业，还是您首先在做其他事情？

[21:03] <santouras> after leaving high school and having an interest in the design side of computing, took a course which gave a high level overview of programming fundamentals and web technologies of the day

[21:03] <santouras>在高中毕业并对计算机的设计方面产生了兴趣之后，参加了一个课程，该课程对当今的编程基础知识和Web技术进行了高层次的概述

[21:03] <santouras> which back then included such “fun” things as Director and VB6 :)

[21:03] <santouras>当时包含了Director和VB6等“有趣”的东西：)

[21:03] <Dude> self taught! love it

[21:03] <Dude>自学成才！爱它

[21:03] <HAWK> Welcome to the people that have just joined us. We’re talking to santouras and Bentheax about how they got into the industry.

[21:03] <HAWK>欢迎来到刚加入我们的人们。我们正在与santouras和Bentheax讨论他们如何进入该行业。

[21:03] <HAWK> Sweet – thanks Jude

[21:03] <HAWK>甜–感谢裘德

[21:04] <HAWK> Bentheax – your experience was different, yeah? Care to fill us in?

[21:04] <HAWK> Bentheax –您的经历与众不同，是吗？想要填写我们吗？

[21:04] <santouras> whilst the education I was getting was good, most of what was practical to me in my job was what I learnt when I was at home, which basically involved reading through loads of source code for open source PHP projects

[21:04] <santouras>虽然我所接受的教育很好，但是对我来说，在我的工作中最实际的是我在家时学到的东西，这基本上涉及阅读大量开源PHP的源代码。专案

[21:04] <santouras> and of course, browsing browser source code for cool looking websites :)

[21:04] <santouras>，当然，还可以浏览漂亮的网站的浏览器源代码：)

[21:04] <HAWK> Hehe – like SitePoint? ;)

[21:04] <HAWK>呵呵–像SitePoint一样？ ;)

[21:05] <Bentheax> OK, I’ll jump in here

[21:05] <Bentheax>好吧，我会跳到这里

[21:05] <santouras> yes! sitepoint was one of the big education sites that I visited at the time, I’ve been a long time forum member before being a staff member ;)

[21:05] <santouras>是的！ sitepoint是我当时访问的大型教育网站之一，在成为一名工作人员之前，我已经很长时间了；)

[21:06] <Bentheax> I went into uni from high school, and ended up enrolled in a software engineering course at RMIT

[ 21:06 ] <Bentheax>我从高中读大学时就读了RMIT的软件工程课程

[21:06] <HAWK> So you chose this path from the start?

[21:06] <HAWK>那么您从一开始就选择了此路径？

[21:06] <santouras> RMIT is a melbourne based IT focused university btw

[ 21:06 ] <santouras> RMIT是一所基于墨尔本的IT重点大学

[21:07] <Bentheax> You could pretty much say that

[21:07] <Bentheax>您几乎可以说

[21:07] <Bentheax> At high school we had some optional programming classes I was taking part in too, Visual Basic 6 as well!

[21:07] <Bentheax>在高中时，我也参加了一些可选的编程课，Visual Basic 6也是如此！

[21:07] <HAWK> Welcome to those of your that have just joined us. santouras and Bentheax

[21:07] <HAWK>欢迎您加入我们的行列。 Santouras和Bentheax

[21:07] <HAWK> are just introducing themselves…

[21:07] <HAWK>只是自我介绍…

[21:08] <Bentheax> so yes, I went into university with a focus on getting into the industry and tailored my choices accordingly

[ 21:08 ] <Bentheax>是的，我上大学时的重点是进入这个行业，并相应地调整了自己的选择

[21:08] <HAWK> In short, santouras is self-taught and Bentheax studied at uni

[21:08] <HAWK>简而言之，santouras是自学成才的，Bentheax在大学学习

[21:08] <molona> hello everyone

[ 21:08 ] <molona>大家好

[21:09] <santouras> hi molona

[21:09] <santouras>嗨molona

[21:09] <Kate> Bentheax and Santouras, do you do different work now as a result of your different way of getting into programming and learning so differently?

[21:09] <Kate> Bentheax和Santouras，由于您以不同的方式进入编程和学习的方式而导致您现在从事不同的工作吗？

[21:09] <santouras> Kate: once I finished studying I went straight into agency work and did that for about 10 years

[21:09] <santouras> Kate：完成学习后，我直接从事代理工作，并做了大约10年的时间

[21:10] <santouras> talking directly to the clients from such and early age in my career definitely affected the way I worked

[21:10] <santouras>在我的职业生涯中这么早就与客户直接交谈肯定会影响我的工作方式

[21:10] <Kate> More front end, back end or both?

[21:10] <Kate>更多前端，后端还是两者？

[21:10] <MalCurtis> santouras: Did you find that not having any ‘real qualifications’ was at all detrimental to your career?

[21:10] <MalCurtis> santouras：您是否发现没有任何“真正的资格”对您的职业有害？

[21:11] <santouras> I started out doing frontend work then moved more into backend

[21:11] <santouras>我开始做前端工作，然后更多地转移到后端

[21:11] <Grace> how do you get your foot into an agency? did you compiled a portfolio with broad range of samples that showcased your coding skills?

[21:11] <恩典>您如何进入代理机构？您是否编写了一个包含广泛样本的投资组合，以展示您的编码技能？

[21:11] <Kate> good question Grace

[21:11] <凯特>好问题恩典

[21:11] <santouras> MalCurtis: it probably hindered me at the start, but once you have a few years “real” experience, that is more valuable I’ve found than a qualification

[21:11] <santouras> MalCurtis：一开始可能会妨碍我，但是一旦您拥有几年的“真实”经验，我发现比获得资格更有价值

[21:11] <santouras> runs on the board and all

[21:11] <santouras>运行在板上，所有

[21:12] <Bentheax> @Kate I think university has a much more dramatic impact on getting started into the industry, but after that it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference

[21:12] <Bentheax> @Kate我认为大学对进入该行业起着更大的影响，但此后并没有太大的不同

[21:12] <molona> MalCurtis When you say ‘real qualifications’ you mean as a designer or web developer, I guess?

[21:12] <molona> MalCurtis当您说“真正的资格”时，您的意思是作为设计师或Web开发人员。

[21:12] <santouras> Grace: I got my first job based on a recommendation from a classmate who was contacted by my future employer

[21:12] <santouras> Grace：我的第一份工作是根据一位同学的推荐而来的，该同学得到了我未来的雇主的联系

[21:12] <MalCurtis> molona: I mean any university / tertiary institute backed qualification

[21:12] <MalCurtis> molona：我的意思是任何大学/大专院校支持的资格

[21:12] <santouras> he knew the job wasn’t for him, but recommended me

[21:12] <santouras>他知道这份工作不适合他，但是推荐了我

[21:13] <MalCurtis> not neccessarily in the field

[21:13] <MalCurtis>不一定在该领域

[21:13] <johnlacey> So what technologies do you use most these days? And have you seen big changes over the years?

[21:13] <johnlacey>那么，这些天您最使用什么技术？这些年来，您是否看到了重大变化？

[21:13] <skelly> hi this is sam a web desinger from ghana!!!!

[21:13] <skelly>嗨，这是来自加纳的一个网络设计者！

[21:13] <MalCurtis> santouras: Any tips on what you’d look for in an ‘unqualified’ applicant looking for a job?

[21:13] <MalCurtis> santouras：您对寻找“不合格”求职者的要求有什么建议？

[21:13] <santouras> in that case it was important that I’d been helping my classmates out with some of their assignments and general school work

[21:13] 在这种情况下，<santouras>重要的是我一直在帮助我的同学们完成一些作业和普通学校的工作

[21:13] <MalCurtis> Hey skelly!

[21:13] <MalCurtis>嘿，臭小子！

[21:13] <molona> MalCurtis Thanks for clarifying

[21:13] <molona> MalCurtis感谢您的澄清

[21:13] <HAWK> Hi skelly

[21:13] <HAWK>嗨，斯凯利

[21:14] <skelly> hi ppl

[21:14] <skelly>您好

[21:14] <santouras> MalCurtis: definitely a back catalogue of things they’d been tinkering on in their spare time

[21:14] <santouras> MalCurtis：绝对是他们在业余时间修补的东西的后退目录

[21:14] <santouras> skills can be taught but enthusiasm, you either have it or you don’t

[21:14] 可以教授<santouras>技能，但是热情却高涨，不管您有没有

[21:14] <MalCurtis> santouras So personal projects are a big win

[21:14] <MalCurtis> santouras因此，个人项目是一个巨大的胜利

[21:14] <HAWK> Maybe you could address johnlacey’s question Bentheax – So what technologies do you use most these days? And have you seen big changes over the years?

[21:14] <HAWK>也许您可以解决johnlacey的问题Bentheax –那么，您最近使用的技术最多？这些年来，您是否看到了重大变化？

[21:14] <santouras> MalCurtis: absolutely

[21:14] <santouras> MalCurtis：绝对

[21:15] <MalCurtis> santouras: What would you recommend as a first point of call for someone looking to self teach?

[21:15] <MalCurtis> santouras：对于希望自学的人，您首先建议什么？

[21:15] <jessirwin> If you’re currently only a ‘front end’ developer, what would you suggest doing to get personal projects for a portfolio – when you can’t design?

[21:15] <jessirwin>如果您目前仅是“前端”开发人员，那么在无法设计时，您会建议采取什么措施来获得投资组合的个人项目？

[21:15] <Bentheax> @johnlacey I use Ruby + Rails for most of my day-to-day work. MVC web frameworks are near ubiquitous these days

[21:15] <Bentheax> @johnlacey我的日常工作大部分都使用Ruby + Rails。如今，MVC Web框架几乎无处不在

[21:15] <Kate> to add to MalCurtis’s question: how do you learn fundamental programming best? Python, PHP?

[21:15] <Kate>添加到MalCurtis的问题中：如何最好地学习基础编程？ Python，PHP？

[21:16] <Bentheax> I’ve seen huge changes over the years, and it seems like many universities have been slow to catch up

[21:16] <Bentheax>这些年来，我已经看到了巨大的变化，而且似乎很多大学都在慢慢追赶

[21:16] <santouras> MalCurtis: one still needs education, so that can be a combination of reading books, taking online courses, loads of tutorials and reading through source code of web established projects

[21:16] <santouras> MalCurtis：仍然需要接受教育，因此可以将阅读书籍，在线课程，大量教程以及通过Web建立的项目的源代码进行阅读结合起来

[21:16] <santouras> github is a goldmine these days

[21:16] 最近，<santouras> github是金矿

[21:16] <tubiz> HAWK the main thing i love doing is development, designing is not my way but i do it. The main problem we have here is Nigeria is getting a designer. What would you recommend?

[21:16] <tubiz> HAWK我喜欢做的主要事情是开发，设计不是我的方法，而是我做的。我们在这里遇到的主要问题是尼日利亚正在聘请设计师。你会推荐什么？

[21:17] <MalCurtis> jessirwin: If you’re not a designer, then perhaps rewriting someone elses ‘standard’ web interface into a javascript one would show off your talents

[21:17] <MalCurtis> jessirwin：如果您不是设计师，那么也许将其他人的“标准”网络界面重写为JavaScript会展示您的才华

[21:17] <HAWK> Welcome to those of you that have just joined. We’re talking about getting started in the industry – please feel free to jump in at any time. You can @ tag people to get their attention.

[21:17] <HAWK>欢迎大家加入。我们正在谈论该行业的起步–请随时加入。您可以@标记人物以引起他们的注意。

[21:17] <johnlacey> The rate of change in this industry seems huge and fast, and I’ve seen a lot of people invest a lot of time learning things that become obsolete and they in turn become really disheartened.

[21:17] <johnlacey>这个行业的变化速度似乎巨大而又Swift，我已经看到很多人投入大量时间学习过时的东西，而他们反而变得非常沮丧。

[21:17] <santouras> issue queues with discussions going on involving really smart people discussing how to best solve problems

[21:17] <santouras>问题队列进行了讨论，其中涉及真正聪明的人，讨论如何最好地解决问题

[21:17] <tubiz> Tunde hello are u from Nigeria?

[21:17] <tubiz>敦德你好，你来自尼日利亚吗？

[21:17] <santouras> the very open eco-system that github and other services like it promote are invaluable to people looking to teach themselves

[21:17] <santouras> github及其类似服务促进的非常开放的生态系统对于希望自学的人们来说是无价的

[21:18] <HAWK> Do you want a designer that would work with you full time, or are you happy to contract them in for projects tubiz?

[21:18] <HAWK>您是否想要一个可以与您全职合作的设计师，还是愿意为Tubiz项目与他们签约？

[21:18] <Bentheax> @johnlacey the key is just to keep on learning new things all the time

[21:18] <Bentheax> @johnlacey关键是要一直不断学习新事物

[21:18] <MalCurtis> tubiz: Have you looked at www.99designs.com?

[21:18] <MalCurtis> tubiz：您看过www.99designs.com吗？

[21:18] <Bentheax> and to keep in mind that your effort spent in learning some dead language / framework is never actually wasted

[21:18] <Bentheax>，请记住，您花在学习某种死语言/框架上的精力实际上并没有浪费

[21:18] <molona> @tubiz I live in Spain but my designer lives in Estonia… the internet makes things possible

[21:18] <molona> @tubiz我住在西班牙，但是我的设计师住在爱沙尼亚……互联网使事情变得可能

[21:18] <santouras> I also spent a lot of time in my early days in IRC channels that had a large contingent of very technical people in them

[21:18] <santouras>早年，我还在IRC频道中度过了很多时间，这些频道中有很多技术人员

[21:19] <tubiz> HAWK full time / contract the main problem is getting one

[21:19] <tubiz> HAWK全日制/合同的主要问题是得到一个

[21:19] <molona> @tubiz you also have placeslike 99desings.com where you can find a design that you may want to code

[21:19] <molona> @tubiz，您还可以在99desings.com之类的地方找到想要编码的设计

[21:19] <Bentheax> There’s always lots of idioms you learn and changes in perception that stick with you going forward that make you a better programmer

[21:19] <Bentheax>您经常学习很多成语，并且观念上的改变会随着您的前进而发展，从而使您成为更好的程序员

[21:19] <santouras> building up a set of connections is really invaluable, whether you are self taught or had a uni degree :)

[21:19] <santouras>建立一套联系确实是无价的，无论您是自学还是获得大学学位：)

[21:19] <tubiz> molona how did you do that.

[21:19] <tubiz> molona你是怎么做到的。

[21:20] <johnlacey> How do you actually plan what you’re coding (do you spend time working on flowcharts and pseudo code, or is it more fluid than that)?

[21:20] <johnlacey>您如何实际计划所编写的代码(您花时间在流程图和伪代码上工作，还是比这更流畅)？

[21:20] <HAWK> tubiz Check out 99designs.com or http://sitepointmarket.com/service-providers/web-designers

[21:20] <HAWK> tubiz查看99designs.com或http://sitepointmarket.com/service-providers/web-designers

[21:20] <molona> @tubiz… actually, I sometimes use 99designs.com to compete against other designers… while I’m not the best, I need to sharpen my skills and I find that competeing against others and receive critiques help me

[21:20] <molona> @tubiz ...实际上，有时我会使用99designs.com与其他设计师竞争...虽然我不是最好的设计师，但我需要提高自己的技能，并且发现与他人竞争并获得批评帮助我

[21:21] <molona> @tubiz There I found a particular designer that competed very often… and I liked his designs

[21:21] <molona> @tubiz在那儿，我找到了一位特别参加比赛的设计师……我喜欢他的设计

[21:21] <thaolt> excuse me for idiotic question,but what is web industry? like everything from hosting, developing to promoting and monetizing etc.?

[21:21] <thaolt>请问我一个愚蠢的问题，但是什么是网络行业？例如托管，开发，推广和获利等所有内容？

[21:21] <santouras> @thaolt more design/coding in this instance

[21:21] <santouras> @thaolt在这种情况下更多设计/编码

[21:21] <molona> @tubiz I contacted him to give him the work I couldn’t do… I’m more a programmer than anything else and doing a good design takes me ages

[21:21] <molona> @tubiz我联系了他，向他提供了我无法完成的工作……我比任何其他人都更像一名程序员，而且做一个好的设计需要我很多年

[21:21] <thaolt> Thanks

[21:21] <thaolt>谢谢

[21:21] <molona> @tubiz and he does it in a breeze :D

[21:21] <molona> @tubiz，他轻而易举地：D

[21:22] <Barney> best place I found was simple forums — there ppl have needs, there I can fill those needs, this has worked for me..

[21:22] <Barney>我找到的最好的地方是简单的论坛—那里有个人需求，我可以满足那些需求，这对我很有用。

[21:22] <santouras> @johnlacey depending on the project, I’ll start with sketching out my basic data structures and how I see them fitting together

[21:22] <santouras> @johnlacey取决于项目，我将首先勾勒出基本数据结构以及如何将它们组合在一起

[21:22] <tubiz> molona seems we are in the same shoes. I have a flair for development and not design. Guess I will learn a lot from you

[21:22] <tubiz> molona似乎我们穿着同一双鞋。我具有开发能力而非设计能力。猜猜我会向你学习很多

[21:22] <HAWK> Agreed Barney – I am also self-taught and a lot of that came from forums

[21:22] <HAWK>同意Barney –我也是自学成才的，其中很多来自论坛

[21:23] <santouras> then moving onto some basic prototyping of how all the elements fit together and going from there

[21:23] <santouras>，然后进入一些基本原型，说明所有元素如何组合在一起并从那里开始

[21:23] <Grace> where can we find a downloadable transcript for the talk when the session ends?

[21:23] <Grace>会议结束时，我们在哪里可以找到该谈话的可下载副本？

[21:23] <santouras> and lots and lots of rebuilds when you find better ways of doing things! :)

[21:23] 当您找到更好的做事方法时，<santouras>以及大量的重建工作！ :)

[21:23] <HAWK> I will post up the transcript on sitepoint.com later today Grace

[21:23] <HAWK>今天晚些时候，我将成绩单发布到sitepoint.com上

[21:23] <Kate> I thought that was just my life – rebuilds

[21:23] <凯特>我以为那只是我的生活-重建

[21:23] <Grace> thanks Hawk

[21:23] <格雷斯>谢谢霍克

[21:23] <HAWK> np

[21:23] <molona> @tubiz I guess we can learn from each other :D

[21:23] <molona> @tubiz我想我们可以互相学习：D

[21:23] <santouras> Kate: that’s a part of every developers life :)

[21:23] <santouras> Kate：这是每个开发人员生活的一部分：)

[21:24] <Bentheax> yes, continuous integration and unit tests are a godsend for feeling out new ideas really quickly

[21:24] <Bentheax>是的，持续集成和单元测试是真正快速发现新想法的天赐之物

[21:24] <HAWK> Hehe, welcome Capt_Snickle_Fritz

[21:24] <HAWK>呵呵，欢迎上尉_尼克·弗里茨

[21:24] <johnlacey> Studying, and working on personal projects, I almost find I am in a bit of a vacuum. (My code etc. only really has to make sense to me – and sometimes my teachers.) How do you coordinate with others when working on large projects?

[21:24] <johnlacey>在学习和从事个人项目时，我几乎发现自己有些空白。 (我的代码等实际上只对我有意义-有时对我的老师有意义。)在进行大型项目时，您如何与他人协调？

[21:24] <tubiz> @molono would appreciate if we can continue this discussion after this chat my twitter handle tubiz

[21:24] <tubiz> @molono将不胜感激，如果我们可以在此聊天之后继续讨论，我的Twitter处理Tubiz

[21:24] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Thanks HAWK

[21:24] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>谢谢HAWK

[21:24] <MalCurtis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz: I love your name.

[21:24] <MalCurtis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz：我爱你的名字。

[21:25] <santouras> johnlacey: having a network of people that you can call on is important, and putting the code out to them for feedback is how you can bring other people into that vaccum

[21:25] <santouras> johnlacey：拥有可以召集的人际网络很重要，将代码发布给他们以征求反馈是您可以如何使其他人陷入真空中

[21:25] <thaolt> What are your preference for CI server?

[21:25] <thaolt>您对CI服务器的偏好是什么？

[21:25] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> My mom used to call me that when I was a wee lad lol

[21:25] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>我妈妈曾经打电话给我说，当我还是个小伙子大声笑时

[21:25] <HAWK> Welcome to those of you that have just joined. Feel free to jump in with questions for Jude or Ben at any time.

[21:25] <HAWK>欢迎来到你们刚刚加入的人们。随时随时提出有关Jude或Ben的问题。

[21:25] <santouras> whether you get those connections through IRC, forums, conferences

[21:25] <santouras>是否通过IRC，论坛，会议获得这些联系

[21:25] <molona> @tubiz my twitter handle is @nuriaz

[21:25] <molona> @tubiz我的推特句柄是@nuriaz

[21:26] <MalCurtis> thaolt ‘Go’ by ThoughtWorks is a great product http://www.thoughtworks-studios.com/go-continuous-delivery

[21:26] ThoughtWorks的<MalCurtis>'Go'是个很棒的产品http://www.thoughtworks-studios.com/go-continuous-delivery

[21:26] <tubiz> @molona ff you in a bit

[21:26] <tubiz> @molona稍等一下

[21:26] <thaolt> Thanks MalCurtis

[21:26] <thaolt>谢谢MalCurtis

[21:26] <HAWK> santouras: do you think that sites like Learnable (for instance) will mean that there are a lot more self-taught people in the industry, and what affect do you think that will have?

[21:26] <HAWK> santouras：您认为像Learnable这样的网站(例如)是否意味着该行业会有更多自学成才的人，您认为这会对他们产生什么影响？

[21:26] <santouras> johnlacey: once you have those connections, make sure you’re also a giver and not just a taker! they’ll often be asking for feedback as well, and going through someone elses work and offering suggestions is a great way for you to not only learn but also get a bit of karma for when you need some help :)

[21:26] <santouras> johnlacey：一旦有了这些联系，请确保您也是一个给予者，而不仅仅是接受者！他们也经常会要求反馈，遍历别人的工作并提供建议是您学习和获得因果报应的好方法：当您需要帮助时：)

[21:26] <thaolt> I would like to ask santouras

[21:26] <thaolt>我想问问santouras

[21:26] <MalCurtis> santouras will tell you TeamCity ;)

[21:26] <MalCurtis> santouras将告诉您TeamCity;)

[21:27] <thaolt> and Bentheax, about their preferred CI server software

[21:27] <thaolt>和Bentheax，关于他们首选的CI服务器软件

[21:27] <Jannis> I teach a web design/dev class at AUT and my students are graduating this year… I’d say out of ~40, 5–8 have serious potential for web design work. Any advice on how to get a foot hold in the industry when you’re primarily a visual designer with (very) limited coding skills?

[21:27] <Jannis>我在AUT开设了一个网页设计/开发班，今年我的学生即将毕业……我想说，大约40至5-8人具有重大的网页设计工作潜力。当您主要是具有(非常)有限的编程技能的视觉设计师时，如何在行业中立足，您有何建议？

[21:27] <Grace> I am a self taught person too… where can I go to post code that I’ve coded for feedback and review, any recommendations?…

[21:27] <Grace>我也是一个自学成才的人……在哪里可以张贴我编写的用于反馈和审阅的代码，任何建议？

[21:27] <Bentheax> just to expand on johnlacey’s thought about being stuck in a vacuum. In terms of studying, the easiest way is to pick up on subjects that involve programming in pairs

[21:27] <Bentheax>只是为了扩展约翰拉西关于被困在真空中的思想。就学习而言，最简单的方法是选择涉及成对编程的学科

[21:27] <santouras> HAWK: absolutely. getting access to quality instructors, especially being able to interact with them like you can in learnable, means more people will see it as a viable way to learn something

[21:27] <santouras> HAWK：绝对。接触到高质量的讲师，尤其是能够像学习中那样与他们互动，这意味着更多的人会认为这是学习某些内容的可行方法

[21:28] <santouras> these days people aren’t waiting till they get to uni to start learning, kids are learning to code in their early teens! by the time they’ve gotten to uni age they may already have 5 years experience

[21:28] <santouras>这些天，人们不再等到他们开始学习uni时，孩子们正在学习在十几岁的时候编写代码！到他们成年的时候，他们可能已经有5年的经验了

[21:28] <Bentheax> you can build a rapport really quickly and it’s a good way to start developing the skills needed to get your code and communication working well with others

[21:28] <Bentheax>您可以非常快速地建立融洽的关系，这是开始开发使您的代码和与他人之间的良好沟通所需要的技能的好方法

[21:28] <santouras> one of our previous experts wrote a wordpress book when he was 16. it is fundamentally changing the industry

[21:28] <santouras>我们以前的一位专家在他16岁时写了一本wordpress书，这从根本上改变了这个行业。

[21:28] <Barney> Grace what language is your coding? That will make a diff as to where I amy recommend.

[21:28] <Barney>恩典您的编码是哪种语言？这将使我对艾米建议的地方有所不同。

[21:29] <johnlacey> I used to program my Commodore 64 when I was a kid. That was my introduction to programming. lol

[21:29] <johnlacey>我小时候曾经为Commodore 64编程。那是我对编程的介绍。大声笑

[21:29] <Bentheax> larger projects make it that much more difficult

[21:29] <Bentheax>较大的项目使它变得困难得多

[21:29] <santouras> johnlacey: I loved making adventure style games on the C64 :)

[21:29] <santouras> johnlacey：我喜欢在C64上制作冒险风格的游戏:)

[21:29] <johnlacey> So what skills (technical and soft skills) do you find employers in IT are looking for?

[21:29] <johnlacey>那么，您发现IT雇主正在寻找什么技能(技术和软技能)？

[21:29] <HAWK> Can someone please address Jannis’s question: Any advice on how to get a foot hold in the industry when you’re primarily a visual designer with (very) limited coding skills?

[21:29] <HAWK>有人可以解决Jannis的问题：如果您主要是(非常)有限的编程技能的视觉设计师，那么有关如何在行业中立足的任何建议？

[21:29] <jessirwin> What front end skills/languages would you say are a must have?

[21:29] <jessirwin>您说必须具备哪些前端技能/语言？

[21:30] <Bentheax> @thaolt I can’t really comment on a preferred CI software, I haven’t tried enough different programs out to have an educated opinion

[21:30] <Bentheax> @thaolt我无法真正评论首选的CI软件，我还没有尝试足够多的不同程序来产生有教养的意见

[21:30] <jessirwin> Also, do you think the whole ‘designing in browser, ditch photoshop’, will affect those that are only front-end developers? (As opposed to those that can design and code?)

[21:30] <jessirwin>另外，您是否认为整个“在浏览器中设计沟渠Photoshop”会影响那些仅仅是前端开发人员的项目？ (与那些可以设计和编码的代码相反？)

[21:30] <Barney> Jannis’s join wordpress,org forum – there you can find hundreds of people needing design help

[21:30] <Barney> Jannis的加入wordpress，org论坛–那里可以找到数百人需要设计帮助

[21:30] <Grace> I can code in HTML/ CSS…working on getting fluent in HTML5/CSS3 and I’m learning javascript; jquery; php; word press on learnable…thank you

[21:30] <Grace>我可以用HTML / CSS编写代码……努力使自己流利地使用HTML5 / CSS3，并且我正在学习javascript； jQuery的; php; 可学习的单词按...谢谢

[21:30] <thaolt> Thanks Bentheax

[21:30] <thaolt>谢谢Bentheax

[21:30] <molona> Jannis I think that visual designers have it a bit easier… but you definately need to find a good coder that you can trust and that you can communicate with

[21:30] <molona> Jannis我认为视觉设计师可以轻松一些……但是，您绝对需要找到一个值得信赖并且可以与之交流的好的编码器

[21:30] <Grace> thank you Barney

[21:30] <恩典>谢谢巴尼

[21:31] <santouras> johnlacey: a good handle on a version control tool is very handy not matter what you want to do, and then going from there, learning at least one of ruby/php/python, a good handle on JS, CSS and HTML are all important

[21:31] <santouras> johnlacey：无论您要做什么，使用版本控制工具都非常方便，然后从那里开始，至少学习ruby / php / python中的一个，对JS，CSS和HTML都很重要

[21:31] <molona> @jannis It also good that you learn the basics of coding yourself, and a bit of UX and a bit of accessibility

[21:31] <molona> @jannis您也可以学习自己编码的基础知识，以及一些UX和一些可访问性

[21:31] <Jannis> Barney, I’m talking less about learning code but rather find a way to make a living doing what these young graduates love doing: designing stuff :)

[21:31] <Jannis> Barney，我讲的不是学习代码，而是找到一种以这些年轻毕业生喜欢做的事情为生的方法：设计东西:)

[21:31] <johnlacey> I think, even if you specialise in one thing (design/coding/whatever), it is good to have a nodding acquaintance with other related disciplines if only so you can communicate with other team members effectively.

[21:31] <johnlacey>我认为，即使您只擅长一件事(设计/编码/其他)，也可以与其他相关学科打个招呼，这是很好的，因为这样您就可以与其他团队成员有效地沟通。

[21:32] <Barney> join codeable.io — it is great for small design projects and it is controlled (money wise) – you never get stiffed

[21:32] <Barney>加入codeable.io-这对小型设计项目非常有用，而且它是受控的(从金钱上来说)-您永远不会僵硬

[21:32] <molona> @jannis Not only to be able to help if needed… it is more to understand what your coder will have to go through.. and how to give him directions, if needed

[21:32] <molona> @jannis不仅可以在需要时提供帮助…还可以了解您的编码员必须经历的事情..以及在需要时如何向他提供指导

[21:32] <Jannis> For context: I am currently teaching them HTML, CSS and JS. So they will graduate with a foundation to start with but their passion is design, not code.

[21:32] <詹尼斯>对于上下文：我目前正在教他们HTML，CSS和JS。因此，他们将从毕业的基础开始，但他们的热情是设计而不是代码。

[21:32] <santouras> @jessirwin I’m very suspicious about “design in the browser”

[21:32] <santouras> @jessirwin我对“浏览器中的设计”非常怀疑

[21:32] <Barney> that was my 3.5 Cents :-)

[21:32] <Barney>那是我的3.5美分:-)

[21:32] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Jannis You might point people in the direction of sites like Odesk.com to get a start on things, and working with customers. I’ve been pointed in that direction myself actually, and don’t have any experience with it, but quite a few people recommended it, so I’m going to give it a go.

[21:32] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Jannis您可能会向人们指出Odesk.com等网站的方向，以开始做事并与客户合作。我本人实际上已指向该方向，对此没有任何经验，但是很多人推荐它，因此我将尝试一下。

[21:32] <santouras> I think there is still a lot of room for those that can put together quality photoshop designs, I don’t feel that is a skill that will ever disappear

[21:32] <santouras>我认为对于那些可以将高质量的Photoshop设计组合在一起的人来说，还有很多空间，我不认为这是一种永远不会消失的技能

[21:32] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Any feedback on that suggestion is welcome lol.

[21:32] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>关于该建议的任何反馈都值得欢迎。

[21:33] <Jannis> molona Agreed. Understanding code is essential but being in the industry myself, I find ~80% (?) of job offers and opportunities are not for designers but creative coders these days.

[21:33] <詹尼斯>莫罗纳同意。了解代码是必不可少的，但我自己一个人在行业内工作，我发现这些工作中约有80％(？)的机会和机会不是设计师，而是创意编码员。

[21:33] <Barney> Jannis I made 18,000 US from wordpress.org forums in 2012

[21:33] <Barney> Jannis我在2012年wordpress.org论坛上赚了18,000美元

[21:33] <Jannis> Barney, thanks for both links. On my list to check out :)

[21:33] <詹尼斯>巴尼，感谢两个链接。在我的清单上签出:)

[21:33] <molona> @jannis If you go to places like eLance, Odesk or similar, be sure that you study each applicant and their reputation… it is not totally a perfect system but if they have a good reputation and long time on that web, it is less likeky that they mess up

[21:33] <molona> @jannis如果您去过eLance，Odesk或类似地点，请确保您研究每个申请人及其声誉……这不是一个完美的系统，但是如果他们有良好的声誉并且拥有很长的时间在那个网上，他们搞砸的可能性不那么大

[21:34] <jessirwin> santouras I’ve seen many articles about it, but can’t think how it’d work smoothly. I’m afraid that at some point, it will mean I’m redundant as just a front-end dev.

[21:34] <jessirwin> santouras我看过很多关于它的文章，但是无法想到它如何顺利地工作。恐怕在某个时候，这将意味着我只是一个前端开发人员而已。

[21:34] <tubiz> Barney how did you do that? Are you really serious

[21:34] <tubiz>巴尼你是怎么做到的？你真的认真吗

[21:34] <Barney> Peoplepost on those forums because they are in PAIN and need of help — many want free Many will pay to just get it out of their hair

[21:34] <Barney>在这些论坛上的Peoplepost，因为它们处于PAIN且需要帮助-许多人想要免费许多人会付出代价以摆脱困境

[21:34] <Barney> very serious, tubiz

[21:34] <巴尼>非常认真，tubiz

[21:34] <HAWK> What would you suggest that someone new to the industry does to make themselves stand out in the eyes of a prospective empolyer Bentheax

[21:34] <HAWK>您如何建议该行业的新手在潜在的富翁Bentheax眼中脱颖而出？

[21:34] <JoshySav> Would you say freelance is best?

[21:34] <JoshySav>您认为自由职业者是最好的吗？

[21:34] <molona> @jannis another thing to take into account is the money that the project will cost… if you know how to explain what you want, the quote will be precise… but unexpected changes or bad explanations can make the bill go rocket high… so be very clear

[21:34] <molona> @jannis要考虑的另一件事是该项目将要花费的资金……如果您知道如何解释自己想要的东西，报价将是准确的……但是意料之外的变化或错误的解释可能会使比尔飞得很高……所以要非常清楚

[21:35] <santouras> @JoshySav that all depends on your skillset!

[21:35] <santouras> @JoshySav一切都取决于您的技能！

[21:35] <Barney> think about it – someone post on forums looking for something. Many looking for free some will pay just to get rid of the problem

[21:35] <Barney>考虑一下–有人在论坛上发帖寻找东西。许多人免费寻找，有些人会为了摆脱这个问题而付费

[21:35] <santouras> personally I wouldn’t enjoy freelancing but thats because I don’t enjoy the financial side of running a business :)

[21:35] <santouras>我个人不喜欢自由职业，但这就是因为我不喜欢经营生意的财务方面:)

[21:35] <JoshySav> Good point. I’m 18 and still pretty new to the industry. What would you recommend?

[21:35] <JoshySav>好点。我今年18岁，对这个行业还是很陌生。你会推荐什么？

[21:35] <molona> @jannis finally, for simple projects or just (x)html coding, you can find a lot of services that create a (X)HTML page from a PSD

[21:35] <molona> @jannis最后，对于简单项目或仅(x)html编码，您可以找到很多服务，这些服务可以通过PSD创建(X)HTML页面

[21:35] <Bentheax> @HAWK I think the number one thing regardless of background is to build up a portfolio of projects you’ve work on

[21:35] <Bentheax> @HAWK我认为无论背景如何，第一件事就是建立您从事的项目的投资组合

[21:36] <Barney> maybe a simple CSS or WP plgin, etc… thats where I started

[21:36] <Barney>也许是简单CSS或WP plgin等，这就是我开始的地方

[21:36] <Bentheax> polish them up really nicely and make them available. You’ll sharpen your skills and also catch the eye of employers.

[21:36] <Bentheax>很好地抛光了它们并使其可用。您将提高自己的技能，并引起雇主的注意。

[21:36] <Jannis> molona all good advice, thanks. Will be interesting to see how my students get on once they leave their sheltered university life behind :)

[21:36] <Jannis> molona所有好的建议，谢谢。看到我的学生在离开庇护所的大学生活后如何生活会很有趣：)

[21:37] <Barney> within 3 monthes of curzing them and answering peeps daily I got following with real phones and emails and a paypal acct they deposit into from around the world

[21:37] <Barney>在每天处理它们并回答偷窥的3个月内，我得到了来自世界各地的真实电话和电子邮件以及他们存入的Paypal帐户

[21:37] <santouras> JoshySav: doing some freelance work to get a portfolio together is always a good thing however when you’re new in the industry. even tho I would never do freelance and projects for friends these days, when I was starting out I did not only as a way to test my skills but as a way to develop a real website for someone that wasn’t paying for it :)

[21:37] <santouras> JoshySav：做一些自由职业以使投资组合在一起总是一件好事，但是，当您刚接触该行业时。甚至连这些天我都永远不会为朋友做自由职业者和项目，当我刚开始的时候，我不仅作为一种测试自己的技能的方法，而且作为一种为没有钱的人开发真实网站的方法：)

[21:37] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> I’ve been job searching in the industry now for quite awhile @HAWK so I could answer that question pretty well.

[21:37] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> @HAWK我已经在行业中寻找工作了一段时间了，所以我可以很好地回答这个问题。

[21:37] <HAWK> Let’s hear it Capt_Snickle_Fritz

[21:37] <HAWK>让我们听听Capt_Snickle_Fritz

[21:37] <JoshySav> Thanks santouras appreciate the advice

[21:37] <JoshySav>谢谢santouras感谢您的建议

[21:38] <JoshySav> thats what I’m doing at the moment :)

[21:38] <JoshySav>那就是我目前正在做的事情:)

[21:38] <Bentheax> At every interview I attended there was a printout of my portfolio samples, and it generally tended to be a real focal point of conversation. By comparison, I don’t think I saw my cover letters printed off, ever.

[21:38] <Bentheax>在我参加的每次采访中，都有一份我的投资组合样本的打印输出，并且通常倾向于成为谈话的真正焦点。相比之下，我认为我从未见过我的求职信打印过。

[21:38] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> 9 out of 10 positions almost always want some expertise in wordpress and/or drupal. Fluent with windows/linux database.

[21:38] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> 10个职位中的9个几乎总是希望获得有关wordpress和/或drupal的专业知识。精通Windows / Linux数据库。

[21:38] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Experience with pretty much all applications via Adobe.

[21:38] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>通过Adobe对几乎所有应用程序进行体验。

[21:38] <molona> @jannis being visual designers, they have it a bit easier than a coder… they can create a portfolio of designs to show… but as important as being a great designer/coder is how to market yourself… and that goes for everything: showing the right attitude, doing how to do a great interview, how to negotiate your wages…

[21:38] <molona> @jannis是视觉设计师，他们比编码器要容易一些……他们可以创建设计方案来展示……但是作为一个出色的设计师/编码器，重要的是如何推销自己……一切都包括在内：表现出正确的态度，做一个很好的面试，如何协商工资……

[21:38] <santouras> no problem JoshySav. doing low expectation freelance work is a good way for you to try out some crazy new technologies that you’d not normally use as well

[21:38] <santouras>没问题，JoshySav。做低期望的自由职业者是您尝试一些通常不常用的疯狂新技术的好方法

[21:39] <tubiz> HAWK Bentheax santouras Barney how do i make money off my skills. I know wordpress in and out but the main problem I have is making money out of it. WOuld be grateful if you can suggest how I can get started

[21:39] <tubiz> HAWK Bentheax santouras Barney我如何从我的技能中赚钱。我知道wordpress的功能，但是我遇到的主要问题是从中赚钱。如果您能建议我如何开始，将不胜感激

[21:39] <jessirwin> When starting out, did you spend more time outside of work reading/learning/experimenting compared to what you do now?

[21:39] <jessirwin>刚开始时，与现在相比，您在工作阅读/学习/实验之外花费的时间更多吗？

[21:39] <santouras> @tubiz sites like tweaky.com are fantastic for that

[21:39] <santouras> @tubiz网站(例如tweaky.com)非常适合

[21:39] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Then, depending on what type of clients you are developing for, C++ experience seems to be pretty common in request, email template building, and ect….

[21:39] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>然后，根据您要开发的客户端类型，在请求，电子邮件模板构建等方面，C ++经验似乎很普遍。

[21:39] <JoshySav> Qualifications or Portfolio?

[21:39] <JoshySav>资格还是投资组合？

[21:40] <Jannis> molona absolutely but I do feel there are considerably less job opportunities in the design market than for coders. Having worked with studios for a while I found that lots of print designers are taking on web work out of necessity so while studios have web work to go around they rarely take chances on young graduate designers with a passion for we

[21:40] <Jannis> molona绝对是，但是我确实觉得设计市场的工作机会比编码人员少得多。在工作室工作了一段时间后，我发现许多印刷设计师出于必要而从事网络工作，因此尽管工作室可以进行网络工作，但他们很少抓住对我们充满热情的年轻毕业生设计师的机会。

[21:40] <Jannis> b.

[21:40] <詹尼斯> b。

[21:40] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> So, from there, they like to see that you have a multitude of languages under your belt, Php, Ruby, Js.Node ect…

[21:40] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>因此，从那里开始，他们喜欢看到您掌握了多种语言，包括Php，Ruby，Js.Node等。

[21:40] <santouras> they give you work so you don’t need to find it, and that allows you to get some experience in the industry

[21:40] <santouras>他们为您提供了工作，因此您无需找到它，这使您可以获得一些行业经验

[21:40] <JoshySav> Barney just wondering what would you say you specialise in?

[21:40] <JoshySav> Barney只是想知道您会说自己专攻什么？

[21:40] <Jannis> molona having said that, it does come down to how you market yourself and your attitude and portfolio. Definitely a big factor.

[21:40] <Jannis> molona说了这一点，这确实取决于您如何营销自己以及您的态度和投资组合。绝对是一个很大的因素。

[21:41] <Barney> web design/development, php, mysql, and wp NOT photoshop

[21:41] <Barney>网页设计/开发，php，mysql和wp不是photoshop

[21:41] <Barney> TY HAWK

[21:41] <巴尼> TY HAWK

[21:41] <Barney> what an eye — hahaha

[21:41] <Barney> 真是个眼睛-哈哈哈

[21:41] <santouras> nothing gets past HAWK :)

[21:41] <santouras>一切都过去了：)

[21:42] <johnlacey> Would you have any recommendations on how to develop fluency with programming languages? (Or is that just something that comes over time?)

[21:42] <johnlacey>您对如何提高编程语言的使用率有何建议？ (或者仅仅是随着时间的流逝而来吗？)

[21:42] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> They want to see your versatility in other words. Specializing in popular CMS products, knowing your way around the Adobe suite, Building clean databases, and possibly something to tie things in to some software like C++. Shortened version lol

[21:42] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>换句话说，他们想看看您的多功能性。专门研究流行的CMS产品，了解Adobe套件的使用方法，构建干净的数据库，以及将其绑定到某些软件(如C ++)的方法。缩短版大声笑

[21:42] <Barney> *smiles*

[21:42] <Barney> *微笑*

[21:42] <molona> @jannis It is true… print designers are in the need of shifting to web… but many of them find hard to do the change…. print is fixed, you know exactly how much room you have… web is fluid, screen monitors differ in sizes and colors and those are the skills of a true web designer… and a point that needs to stress, furthemore when you scree

[21:42] <molona> @jannis的确是这样……印刷设计师需要转向网络……但他们中的许多人发现很难做到这一点……。打印是固定的，您确切地知道您有多少空间…网络是流畅的，屏幕监视器的大小和颜色是不同的，这是真正的网络设计师的技能……还有一点需要强调，此外，

[21:42] <molona> ns can go as smalls as a phone and as big as a 42″ tv

[21:42] <molona> ns可以像电话一样小，也可以像42英寸电视一样大

[21:42] <santouras> johnlacey: time :) and experience

[21:42] <santouras> johnlacey：时间:)和经验

[21:43] <santouras> and also being quick to recognise that the way you’re doing something might not be the best

[21:43] <santouras>，并且很快就会意识到您做某事的方式可能不是最好的

[21:43] <Barney> guys simple by books (pdf) from learnable, I did – created my own webs on wordpress.org to start and show off — then simple reviewed the forums, the request that I could fill I had them email me and contraced a deal

[21:43] <Barney>那些简单易学的人(pdf)，我做到了–在wordpress.org上创建了自己的网站以开始和炫耀–然后简单地查看了论坛，我可以填写我的要求给我发电子邮件并达成协议

[21:43] <santouras> developer blogs on high quality websites like github, 37signals, 99designs, are a great way to get insight into not only coding best practises and what toolchains big companies use but also some of the business decisions behind the way code is written

[21:43] 在优质网站(如github，37signals，99designs)上的<santouras>开发人员博客是一种很好的了解方法，不仅可以洞察编码最佳实践和大公司使用的工具链，还可以洞察背后的一些业务决策编写代码

[21:44] <santouras> look for the new dev blog on learnable.com coming soon ;)

[21:44] <santouras>即将在Learnable.com上寻找新的开发人员博客；)

[21:44] <molona> @jannis also a designer can be more flexible and adaptable… a designer that understands the media and knows about UX and accessibiity and all about fonts worths its weight in gold… because he will not only design beautifully but will be able to design something that the coder can actually code! :-D

[21:44] <molona> @jannis还是一名设计师，可以变得更加灵活和适应性强……一位了解媒体并了解UX和可访问性以及所有字体的设计师值得用金子来形容……因为他不仅会设计精美，而且就能设计出编码员可以实际编码的东西！ :-D

[21:44] <Barney> start small, css, layout problem – in a short time you will get you name past around by them… BRB

[21:44] <Barney>从小型，CSS，布局问题开始–在短时间内，您会被他们的名字打翻……BRB

[21:44] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Some of these job postings are absolutely hilarious lol

[21:44] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>其中一些职位绝对是搞笑的笑声

[21:45] <Jannis> molona, you’re correct but what I meant was the fact that studios/companies are not firing now obsolete print designers to make room for web talents, rather they keep existing staff and try to get them to do web design (which almost always isn’t a good fit).

[21:45] <Jannis> molona，您是对的，但我的意思是工作室/公司现在不裁员过时的印刷设计师，以为网络人才腾出空间，而是他们保留了现有员工并试图将他们吸引到进行网页设计(几乎总是不合适)。

[21:45] <santouras> @molona absolutely. even if you don’t use html/css on a daily basis, knowing the fundamentals as a designer is really important

[21:45] <santouras> @molona绝对。即使您不是每天都使用html / css，了解作为设计师的基础知识也非常重要

[21:45] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Senior Web Developer, must know HTML and CSS. I’d love to know what everyone else need to know then lol

[21:45] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz>高级Web开发人员，必须了解HTML和CSS。我很想知道其他人然后需要知道的事情

[21:45] <HAWK> I’m curious to hear a bit more about Bentheax’s experience of coming in through the SitePoint grad program.

[21:45] <HAWK>我很想听到更多有关Bentheax通过SitePoint研究生课程进入的经历。

[21:46] <HAWK> Are there a lot of these sorts of programs around atm?

[21:46] <HAWK> atm周围有很多这类程序吗？

[21:46] <HAWK> Seems like a great intro into working in our industry

[21:46] <HAWK>似乎是对我们行业工作的一个很好的介绍

[21:46] <Bentheax> Oh yes, I agree so much about those job postings, they tend to be quite optimistic

[21:46] <Bentheax>哦，是的，我非常同意这些工作职位，他们倾向于非常乐观

[21:46] <santouras> Jannis: there is definitely a higher percentage of freelance designers in the industry than coders. At one of my agencies I worked at we would often get an external designer on board to come up with a concept that was completely different to what our inhouse designers would do

[21:46] <santouras> Jannis：在行业中，自由设计师的比例肯定比编码人员高。在我工作过的一家代理商中，我们经常会邀请一位外部设计师提出一个与我们内部设计师完全不同的概念

[21:46] <molona> @molona Then an option is to brand yourself… make yourself popular in social media, show your work, start to sell it in FB and all that… do videos for you tube that have an impact… start to contact people in linkedin… because having the right contacts is really important

[21:46] <molona> @molona然后，一个选择是打上自己的烙印……在社交媒体上广受欢迎，展示您的作品，开始在FB上出售，以及所有这些……为您制作具有影响力的视频……开始在linkedin上与人联系…因为正确的联系非常重要

[21:46] <santouras> then we’d work with that and adapt it to our needs. Also a good way to go about things

[21:46] <santouras>，然后我们将与之合作并使其适应我们的需求。也是处理事情的好方法

[21:47] <Jannis> santouras, good to know. Do you happen to know how these external designers were found/selected?

[21:47] <Jannis> santouras，很高兴认识。您是否知道如何找到/选择这些外部设计师？

[21:47] <Bentheax> @HAWK yes, there are so many grad programs available, and many places accept “grad applications” 1-2 years after graduation

[21:47] <Bentheax> @HAWK是的，有太多的研究生课程可供选择，许多地方在毕业后1-2年接受“研究生申请”

[21:47] <Jannis> Web portfolio? Word of mouth?

[21:47] <Jannis> Web产品组合？口口相传？

[21:47] <molona> @jannis (sorry that I wrote my name instead of yours) What I mean is that if you don’t find the job you either create that job youself or you do something to make tha job come to you… and showing off may be an option

[21:47] <molona> @jannis(对不起，我写了我的名字而不是您的名字)我的意思是，如果您找不到工作，您要么自己创建工作，要么做点什么来使工作成为现实你...炫耀也许是一种选择

[21:48] <santouras> @Jannis usually from connections at conferences/meetups

[ 21:48 ] <santouras> @Jannis通常来自会议/聚会中的联系人

[21:48] <santouras> and once you have one or two on hand, thats all you really need

[ 21:48 ] <santouras>，一旦您手头有一两个，这就是您真正需要的

[21:48] <santouras> as in, as an agency, once we had one or two we were fine :)

[ 21:48 ] <santouras>作为一家代理商，一旦我们拥有一两个，我们就可以了：)

[21:48] <Bentheax> It’s not this big thing you have to have arranged in your final university in order to see success, although it usually does help

[ 21:48 ] <Bentheax>为了获得成功，您不必在最后一所大学里安排这么大的事情，尽管它通常会有所帮助

[21:49] <HAWK> I imagine it would take a lot of pressure off.

[21:49] <HAWK>我想这会减轻很多压力。

[21:49] <johnlacey> Do you find (in a general sense) there are any conspicuous gaps in the education of graduates just entering the industry?

[21:49] <johnlacey>您是否发现(一般意义上)刚进入该行业的毕业生的教育有明显的差距？

[21:49] <Jannis> santouras, sweet. Will tell my students to start attending meetups. I think they’re generally afraid of coming across like a noob at them (which is fine and to be expected this early in their career in my opinion).

[21:49] <Jannis> santouras，甜蜜。会告诉我的学生开始参加聚会。 I think they're generally afraid of coming across like a noob at them (which is fine and to be expected this early in their career in my opinion).

[21:49] <Bentheax> You will find out all about the different grad programs from the larger companies at careers fairs,

[21:49] <Jannis> molona, thanks.

[21:50] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> SitePoint grad program?

[21:50] <HAWK> Agreed Jannis – the people that do well at our workplace are those that put themselves out there – attend meetups, socialise, DO things

[21:50] <santouras> johnlacey: doing agency work I definitely found that uni grads had little concept of the realities of actual business work and timeframes surrounding things

[21:50] <molona> @jannis your students are creative by nature… they should be creative to find their own jobs too and not only use the typical ways fo finding a job such as recruitment agencies, etc.

[21:51] <HAWK> We have a graduate intern program Capt_Snickle_Fritz – interns do a month at each of our companies and then at the end we offer the good ones a job

[21:51] <santouras> they can also struggle to see why designing for future changes in scope are important

[21:51] <HAWK> Works well – we have some great guys as a result

[21:51] <Bentheax> I actually stumbled across the SitePoint grad program through a recruiter, so they can actually be a useful resource for finding grad work too

[21:51] <santouras> johnlacey: I would love it if there was a university project where almost all of the requirements changed about one week out from submission. would simulate the real world much more accurately!

[21:51] <Jannis> HAWK, happen to have a link for some more info on your grad program? Sounds interesting.

[21:52] <johnlacey> lol santouras.

[21:52] <Jannis> santouras :) Wouldn’t that be nice for a bit of real-world feel.

[21:52] <Jannis> santouras :) Wouldn't that be nice for a bit of real-world feel.

[21:52] <johnlacey> Sometimes I wonder if 90% of any client work is reminding the client what they asked for.

[21:53] <santouras> and then expect it to be handed in at the same time. or maybe even a few days earlier :P

[21:53] <HAWK> Sure thing Jannis – https://www.sitepoint.com/jobs/young-talented-developers-and-designers/

[21:53] <Bentheax> Coming through the grad program at SitePoint was great.

[21:53] <santouras> johnlacey: absolutely, having well defined scopes and sign offs are important

[21:53] <santouras> depending on the client of course. some are happy for scope creep and cost adjustments, others need a much firmer hand :)

[21:53] <johnlacey> So HAWK are there any current Sitepoint grad program opportunities?

[21:53] <Bentheax> Fresh out of uni, I thought I actually knew a thing or two about programming, but I was oh-so wrong

[21:54] <Jannis> santouras, teaching at uni at the moment, as good an exercise that would be, you have to put out a brief with marking criteria at the start of the project and that cannot change :/ So much for “preparing our students for the real world” aye.

[21:54] <Jannis> HAWK Thank you.

[21:54] <HAWK> There are johnlacey – more info here https://www.sitepoint.com/jobs/young-talented-developers-and-designers/

[21:54] <JoshySav> Ok got to go :) Thanks so much!! Your doing the community a big favour :)

[21:54] <santouras> Jannis: that is annoying!

[21:54] <santouras> thanks JoshySav!

[21:54] <HAWK> No worries JoshySav – thanks for taking part :)

[21:55] <HAWK> So we have 5 mins left in the session – does anyone have a question that didn’t get answered? If so, now would be the time to raise it.

[21:55] <HAWK> So we have 5 mins left in the session – does anyone have a question that didn't get answered? If so, now would be the time to raise it.

[21:55] <Barney> when is the next ?? ;)

[21:56] <HAWK> At the end of the session I’ll cut our experts free but the rest of you are welcome to stick around here and chat for as long as you like.

[21:56] <HAWK> At the end of the session I'll cut our experts free but the rest of you are welcome to stick around here and chat for as long as you like.

[21:56] <johnlacey> Do certain qualifications (or institutions) carry better reputations than others? [I am currently studying a diploma in web development at TAFE.]

[21:56] <HAWK> The next session you mean, Barney?

[21:56] <Barney> yes Hawk

[21:56] <santouras> johnlacey: I went through the tafe path so I’d probably look at it more favourably ;)

[21:56] <santouras> johnlacey: I went through the tafe path so I'd probably look at it more favourably ;)

[21:56] <HAWK> Barney: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Talk+Backbone.js+with+the+Experts&iso=20130509T06&p1=152&ah=1

[21:56] <johnlacey> lol. Great santouras

[21:56] <Barney> ty

[21:56] <santouras> but in reality, when I’m hiring people I look at what they can do, not where they came from

[21:56] <santouras> but in reality, when I'm hiring people I look at what they can do, not where they came from

[21:57] <molona> I find that the hardest thing to find a job is being confident with your own quality… specially when your starting…. how do you choose the best jobs in your portfolio, specially of that portfolio is made by personal projects?

[21:57] <HAWK> I’ll be posting a full transcript of this session up on sitepoint.com later today

[21:57] <HAWK> I'll be posting a full transcript of this session up on sitepoint.com later today

[21:57] <Jannis> HAWK do you have an Auckland based grad program as well? (the link seems to be Melb only)

[21:57] <Bentheax> If there are any grads out there who are stuck and just don’t know where to start on cracking the industry hit me up at ben.axnick@sitepoint.com

[21:57] <Bentheax> If there are any grads out there who are stuck and just don't know where to start on cracking the industry hit me up at ben.axnick@sitepoint.com

[21:57] <santouras> and also their attitude, which is almost always more important than their skillset

[21:58] <HAWK> Sorry Jannis – we’re actually a Melbourne based company – there are only two of us that work out of Auckland (and we commute to Melbourne monthly)

[21:58] <HAWK> Sorry Jannis – we're actually a Melbourne based company – there are only two of us that work out of Auckland (and we commute to Melbourne monthly)

[21:58] <Jannis> HAWK, no worries :) Just thought I’d check.

[21:58] <Jannis> HAWK, no worries :) Just thought I'd check.

[21:58] <Bentheax> which goes doubly so when you’re starting out as a junior programmer

[21:58] <Bentheax> which goes doubly so when you're starting out as a junior programmer

[21:58] <Grace> Bentheax : can none grads and self-starters hit you up too? thank you

[21:58] <santouras> @molona having a good story about your project is important as well. what problem you are trying to solve, how you tackled it, and where you will improve on it in the future

[21:58] <Bentheax> @Grace sure!

[21:59] <HAWK> I’d also really appreciate any feedback that you have on this interface – this is our first session using it.

[21:59] <HAWK> I'd also really appreciate any feedback that you have on this interface – this is our first session using it.

[21:59] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> I’m curious if the people who went to a university feel like it was worth the money spent, or if they would have been as well off to learn things on their own. Any takers?

[21:59] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> I'm curious if the people who went to a university feel like it was worth the money spent, or if they would have been as well off to learn things on their own. Any takers?

[21:59] <HAWK> If you are happy to help with that, please email me – hawk@sitepoint.com

[21:59] <tubiz> Why didnt i knew about this type of discussions early.

[21:59] <molona> santouras that’s a good approach… if you can explain why you did what you did, that at least should show attitude and willingness

[21:59] <molona> santouras that's a good approach… if you can explain why you did what you did, that at least should show attitude and willingness

[21:59] <Jannis> Bentheax santouras, one last question: How important are open source projects in your selection criteria for a designer/developer type to join you on your project/in your company?

[21:59] <tubiz> I have really learnt and gained a lot today. Thanks everyone

[21:59] <santouras> @molona any sensible employee will know that any project is a current work in progress, so they shouldn’t be judging too harshly on what is there, more important is the why

[21:59] <santouras> @molona any sensible employee will know that any project is a current work in progress, so they shouldn't be judging too harshly on what is there, more important is the why

[21:59] <HAWK> You’re welcome tubiz

[21:59] <HAWK> You're welcome tubiz

[21:59] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> I think the interface works fabulous, and the soft colors are very pleasing.

[21:59] <Bentheax> I think santouras’ point is especially pertintent for junior programmers. Attitude, communication, and general problem solving were the core focus

[21:59] <Bentheax> I think santouras' point is especially pertintent for junior programmers. Attitude, communication, and general problem solving were the core focus

[22:00] <Barney> SitePoint has been berry, berry good 4 me *smiles*

[22:00] <HAWK> I’d like to say thanks VERY much to santouras and Bentheax for their time this morning.

[22:00] <HAWK> I'd like to say thanks VERY much to santouras and Bentheax for their time this morning.

[22:00] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz, I studied design for 3 years and would say that it was well worth it.

[22:00] <santouras> Jannis: it is getting more important every year as open source contributions are expected

[22:00] <HAWK> Thanks to all of you for joining us

[22:00] <johnlacey> HAWK are the sessions mostly going to be around breakfast Australian time?

[22:00] <Barney> bye and Be Well

[22:00] <Bentheax> No-one was particularly troubled about which languages and frameworks I actually knew

[22:00] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz I didn’t finish university and I was styding mining… but I would say that University is good… it teaches you how to learn, how to discipline yourself and the environment is great

[22:00] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz I didn't finish university and I was styding mining… but I would say that University is good… it teaches you how to learn, how to discipline yourself and the environment is great

[22:00] <johnlacey> Thanks Bentheax and santouras

[22:00] <HAWK> And a huge thanks to MalCurtis for the amazing work he did putting this interface together

[22:00] <Grace> Thanks everyone for your professional input and feedback

[22:00] <santouras> thanks everyone!

[22:00] <tubiz> Barney bye

[22:01] <Jannis> Thanks santouras Bentheax HAWK MalCurtis

[22:01] <Jerry> Thanks, everyone

[22:01] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz even if the knowledge you get is not usefull… university opens your mind… it makes future learning easier

[22:01] <HAWK> As I said, you’re all free to hang around here as long as you like.

[22:01] <HAWK> As I said, you're all free to hang around here as long as you like.

[22:01] <Bentheax> Capt_Snickle_Fritz I found the university experience invaluable

[22:01] <Kate> thank you!

[22:02] <HAWK> And you can sign up for email notifications of future sessions here https://www.facebook.com/sitepoint/app_115462065200508

[22:02] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Thanks experts, molana, and Jannis.

[22:02] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> And all others… Very informative session

[22:02] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz, I’d agree with molona, university was an experience in learning how to think and go about any given problem.

[22:02] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz, I'd agree with molona, university was an experience in learning how to think and go about any given problem.

[22:04] <molona> @malcurtis Thanks Mal, It works beautifully and I like it so much better than the previous one…specially because I didn’t have any problem signing in… I used to have to invent new e-mail addresses with the other one lol

[22:04] <molona> @malcurtis Thanks Mal, It works beautifully and I like it so much better than the previous one…specially because I didn't have any problem signing in… I used to have to invent new e-mail addresses with the other one lol

[22:04] <MalCurtis> :)

[22:04] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> I’ve been trying to avoid the University, being a single parent, and severely strapped for time and cash, but I’m coming to the conclusion that the interactivity and on hand help would probably be enough alone to warrant the need for it.

[22:04] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> I've been trying to avoid the University, being a single parent, and severely strapped for time and cash, but I'm coming to the conclusion that the interactivity and on hand help would probably be enough alone to warrant the need for it.

[22:04] <Jannis> HAWK, just read through the grad program page: How much programming knowledge is a prerequisite? Can design grads with a passion for web and a basic HTML,CSS foundation apply? Or are they better off learning more programming before applying?

[22:05] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz don’t go for the ‘on hand help’. That part is actually pretty overrated.

[22:05] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz don't go for the 'on hand help'. That part is actually pretty overrated.

[22:05] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz You don’t need university… but it is a shame if you can’t go through that experience… I had trouble too… my father was really ill, we were a large family (10 siblings) and money was short

[22:05] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz You don't need university… but it is a shame if you can't go through that experience… I had trouble too… my father was really ill, we were a large family (10 siblings) and money was short

[22:05] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz My class for example, 20 students, 1 teacher, 2 hours, once a week. Unfortunately there is not a ton of time I have to spend with individual students in class

[22:06] <molona> Capt_Snickle_FritzI had to work to pay my own universtiy and although I was there only for two years… the memories are great!

[22:06] <HAWK> Flick me an email to hawk@sitepoint.com Jannis and I’ll put you in touch with Leni, who runs the program. He’ll be able to give you that info.

[22:06] <HAWK> Flick me an email to hawk@sitepoint.com Jannis and I'll put you in touch with Leni, who runs the program. He'll be able to give you that info.

[22:06] <Bentheax> The best learning (and some of the most difficult experiences) I had at university were the subjects where I could pair up with other students and work toward large projects over the semester

[22:07] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz So even though I recommend university as an experience and learning exercise still, you’ll have to do a lot of ‘out of class’ work and email your teacher to meet up out of class time to get that hands-on help.

[22:07] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz So even though I recommend university as an experience and learning exercise still, you'll have to do a lot of 'out of class' work and email your teacher to meet up out of class time to get that hands-on help.

[22:07] <Jannis> HAWK Thanks! Email incoming…

[22:07] <Bentheax> The on-hand help can be a little sparse, it’s the interaction with other students that will help get you up to speed

[22:07] <Bentheax> The on-hand help can be a little sparse, it's the interaction with other students that will help get you up to speed

[22:08] <Jerry> @MalCurtis Design is nice, but one question: is there some way to scroll the chat window?

[22:08] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz but if your situation is that you can’t afford it and can’t do that effort… then don’t. It will be harder but if you have will power and enthusiams, it is definately possible… and history is full of stories of people that didn’t even go to school and succeeded

[22:08] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz but if your situation is that you can't afford it and can't do that effort… then don't. It will be harder but if you have will power and enthusiams, it is definately possible… and history is full of stories of people that didn't even go to school and succeeded

[22:08] <Bentheax> 100% agree with molona

[22:09] <molona> @jerry… I use my mouse to scroll… I click on a text as if I was going to write and then use the mouse wheel

[22:09] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> One of the things that has held me up, is that I’ve heard some poor reviews. For example, people saying they went through a development program. Feed back I’ve gotten includes: Just the basics on 1 language, and some data base design ect.. In other words, I’ve heard that it really isn’t that extensive. As far as say design, I’ve heard that course j

[22:09] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> One of the things that has held me up, is that I've heard some poor reviews. For example, people saying they went through a development program. Feed back I've gotten includes: Just the basics on 1 language, and some data base design ect.. In other words, I've heard that it really isn't that extensive. As far as say design, I've heard that course j

[22:09] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> ust teach some photoshop basics, html, and css. All at an introductry type level. Most of that is pretty accessible for free, so I’ve been delayed by doubt so to speak.

[22:09] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> ust teach some photoshop basics, html, and css. All at an introductry type level. Most of that is pretty accessible for free, so I've been delayed by doubt so to speak.

[22:10] <molona> Capt_Snickle_Fritz The good thing about the web world is that you have a lots of resources that will help you as much as university… even if learning solo is not the same

[22:10] <MalCurtis> Jerry You should be able to scroll the chat window normally

[22:10] <Jerry> @molona Thanks! (a scroll bar would be a handy addition. Hint! :) )

[22:10] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz, my recommendation: Learn programming using online tools (free and paid ones) but attend a design course which can help learn the basics in Typography, Colour Theory, Layout etc

[22:10] <molona> but sites like learnable of ynda.com can help to save the gap… and the courses are short enough so you can do one in two weeks, rest , and the go for another gone in a month

[22:11] <Bentheax> Anyway, thanks for joining me on my first session guys. Once again if anyone has queries that they didn’t get answered (or were too shy to ask) hit me up at ben.axnick@sitepoint.com

[22:11] <Bentheax> Anyway, thanks for joining me on my first session guys. Once again if anyone has queries that they didn't get answered (or were too shy to ask) hit me up at ben.axnick@sitepoint.com

[22:11] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz in my opinion that stuff is hard to come by online… at least in a good quality format with a way for you to ask for clarification on those sometimes abstract thought excercises.

[22:11] <Jerry> @MalCurtis molona’s trick (dragging the mouse pointer) worked to scroll, but there’s no visibly obvious interface for such.

[22:11] <Jerry> @MalCurtis molona's trick (dragging the mouse pointer) worked to scroll, but there's no visibly obvious interface for such.

[22:12] <MalCurtis> Jerry: Ah, ok. I use a mac and it doesn’t show scroll bars by default, so if they’re hidden for some reason I wouldn’t have noticed it!

[22:12] <MalCurtis> Jerry: Ah, ok. I use a mac and it doesn't show scroll bars by default, so if they're hidden for some reason I wouldn't have noticed it!

[22:12] <molona> @jannis I agree with you… but some people really don’t have the chance to go to university

[22:12] <molona> @jannis I agree with you… but some people really don't have the chance to go to university

[22:12] <Jerry> OK. I’m on Win7 using Chome FWIW

[22:12] <Jerry> OK. I'm on Win7 using Chome FWIW

[22:12] <HAWK> ok guys, I’m going to cut our experts free now

[22:12] <HAWK> ok guys, I'm going to cut our experts free now

[22:13] <HAWK> I also have to head off. Feel free to hang around, but there will be no moderation.

[22:13] <Jannis> molona, yup, I understand that, and I don’t think it’s a requirement to attend either, but if the question is “is it worth it?” then I would still say yes so long you can afford to (time and money wise)

[22:13] <Jannis> molona, yup, I understand that, and I don't think it's a requirement to attend either, but if the question is “is it worth it?” then I would still say yes so long you can afford to (time and money wise)

[22:13] <HAWK> Please do email me with any feedback – hawk@sitepoint.com

[22:13] <Jerry> @HAWK — looks like they already cut themselves free lol

[22:13] <molona> MalCurtis I’m on a Windows and there are no scroll bars… but simply placing the pointer over the text (I just discovered that I don’t need to click) and using the mouse wheel, does the trick

[22:13] <molona> MalCurtis I'm on a Windows and there are no scroll bars… but simply placing the pointer over the text (I just discovered that I don't need to click) and using the mouse wheel, does the trick

[22:13] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Thanks again Jannis and molona

[22:13] <molona> @jannis Oh then, yes, It is totally worth it :D

[22:14] <Jannis> Capt_Snickle_Fritz Sure thing, feel free to get in touch if you have any question regarding university stuff: hello@jannisgundermann.com

[22:14] <tubiz> ok HAWK.

[22:14] <tubiz> @hawk can i mail you if i need any advise

[22:15] <HAWK> Yeah, sure tubiz

[22:16] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Will do Jannis and thanks again. Time to make the doughnuts!

[22:16] <molona> @tubiz and depending on the advise you need, you can also visit the forums www.sitepoint.com/forums

[22:16] <tubiz> @hawk will do if i need any. Thanks

[22:16] <Jannis> Alright, I’m taking off too. Thanks everyone, been fun.

[22:16] <Jannis> Alright, I'm taking off too. Thanks everyone, been fun.

[22:16] <tubiz> molona ok

[22:16] <molona> it is not that I’m advertising the forum that I collaboratt in :p

[22:16] <molona> it is not that I'm advertising the forum that I collaboratt in :p

[22:17] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Grad programs are only for grads I bet. That’s a good reason too! lol

[22:17] <Capt_Snickle_Fritz> Grad programs are only for grads I bet. That's a good reason too! lol

[22:17] <Jerry> You expect us to believe that, molona? ;)

[22:17] <molona> @jerry … what?

[22:18] <Jerry> That you weren’t sneaking in a plug for the SP forums lol

[22:18] <Jerry> That you weren't sneaking in a plug for the SP forums lol

[22:18] <molona> @jerry… was it too obvious? Damn… and I thought I was being discreet lol

[22:19] <molona> @jerry but I guess that I need to take full responsibility of my actions… nobody asked me to advertise the forums… I simply did it…

[22:20] <molona> @jerry I hope that you don’t consider me a spammer :p

[22:20] <molona> @jerry I hope that you don't consider me a spammer :p

[22:20] <Jerry> np — jut giving you a little grief over the disclaimer more than the comment

[22:20] <Jerry> nah

[22:20] <molona> @jerry lol

[22:21] <Jerry> The passing references to sites that are obvious to many are often the most helpful

[22:21] <molona> still, it is true that there are some brilliant peope there and with lots of knowledge

[22:21] <Jerry> That is true

[22:22] <molona> I feel lucky to be able to collaborate with them :D

[22:22] <tubiz> have to go now bye Jerry molona

翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/getting-started-in-the-industry/

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